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34BigThings Denies Digital Foundry’s Redout XB1X Analysis (Update: Digital Foundry Apology)
- Thread starter lupianwolf
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I didn't remember this, but how can someone prove that was wrong? it was a closed event for press only, i'm not sure if it was the same build of the testpunch (especially because that looked straight up the final release)
But i'm rewatching that video now and i'm maybe confusing it with something else (Splatoon?) since there is no analysis for the final build, and in your video you said that the game was already 1080/60 docked at least in singleplayer.
Me personally i'm a little more skeptical when you jump with the speculations on resolution and frame with an analysis for a 5 seconds gameplay from a direct (so with an already compressed video) like what happened with Doom on Switch.
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This is a little ridiculous (the "fake news" bit in particular annoys me, as others have noted as well), but if they turn out to be correct I can see where they're coming from, I guess?
This really shows the dark side of the obsession some players have with framerate and resolution. Seriously, going out of your way to harass devs and call them "lazy"? It doesn't surprise me, but it's still really frustrating to see, and I can see why a small developer would panic over it.
This really shows the dark side of the obsession some players have with framerate and resolution. Seriously, going out of your way to harass devs and call them "lazy"? It doesn't surprise me, but it's still really frustrating to see, and I can see why a small developer would panic over it.
Hate to pull a Boogie tit for tat play, but neither side walks away completely innocent here. DF's recent obsession with catering to the console warrior filth certainly seems beneath typical technical editorial standards, but that has nothing to do with their analysis of the game's technical merits. I find it odd that multiple sources at DF would come to the same conclusion. I also find the "fake news" low blow telling of the true personality of the CEOat 34bigthings.
It will be interesting to see DF's response.
It will be interesting to see DF's response.
Developer comes out looking far worse here then digital foundry....legal threats...Yeah why even go there.
I agree they have the absolute right to sue and that's a matter that should be handled by their lawyers in private.
Yeah, they're going WAY TOO FAR.
Could've just talked to DF and said they had the wrong information and then worked together, but they decided to go too far in my opinion.
No. Any attempt to do so (at least in the US) would not only get laughed out of court, the company attempting to file suit would likely end up paying for DF's legal fees.
Didn't just imply. Flat out claimed that it was true, despite the fact that it is only a quarter.
Well I didn't do that one either - just the final release of Doom. Pretty sure that Doom video your talking about WAS pure speculation - which was the point. Nothing wrong with that, right?
I was spot on with the Splatoon 2 final analysis as well. I stand by those 100%.
Its just unprofessional, technical specs the CEO put out were even wrong...it screams amateur and it devalues their brand more so then incorrect analysis of the resolution of their game
By all means DF might be wrong in their resolution analysis of the game, but to assume it's maliciousness to get clicks and draw controversy without any precedent or reasoning behind it is quite petty.
In the end it's a technical analysis based on the product they have in front of them. They present the results they observed and try to draw some interpretation. They have to rely on overlay tools to gather the info, which isn't 100% accurate, so yeah it can happen they get it wrong. I don't see how making a big stink about it and essentially throwing a tantrum is the right way to go about it as first response. Much better to engage in constructive discourse to try to figure out where the mistake came from.
In the end it's a technical analysis based on the product they have in front of them. They present the results they observed and try to draw some interpretation. They have to rely on overlay tools to gather the info, which isn't 100% accurate, so yeah it can happen they get it wrong. I don't see how making a big stink about it and essentially throwing a tantrum is the right way to go about it as first response. Much better to engage in constructive discourse to try to figure out where the mistake came from.
No, it just makes us fans so nervous: because in that case Switch owners were guessing if that game was going to be that bad, while on the other hand other console fans joking on the low performances (of an unfinished build which is a little unfair)... nothing wrong with you, it's just the comment section that becomes a nightmare with these speculation videos.
Also i'd add that Nintendo Direct footages are weird because not everytime they are showing the game running on Switch, i remember Rocket league looking way better on those directs than in the final release.
I guess digitalfoundry will have to put an disclaimer on the end of every video wherein they'll state that:
"Any findings are subjective and found by their own research. Digitalfoundry is not liable for any damage due to this video."
Perhaps they should've done that in the beginning as to prevent this from happening. They may even call every videos Tech Reviews to divert the objective stand they've been known for (imo).
Maybe devs should be transparent themselves right?
It's not like they ever make a mistake or fool us with their claims?
Another thing is, how often do your purchase decision of games end up making a difference due to digitalfoundry's videos?
I rarely did, I mostly found their videos interesting. I mean they do hundreds of videos ranging for all kind of platforms. It provides great insight as to which hardware you need (PC). It provides insight as to what techniques devs use or how stable their games run. They even cover exclusives where hardware differences don't even matter, I mean why would you need to watch a video about that other than out of interest?
Other than the difference between platforms, there is zero incentive to root for that specific console platform. As for headline clickbaity titles, look at some of the threads or YT videos in general. It's nothing unsual nowadays. Is it still fine? Perhaps not, but in this case, it was still true, objectively.
Maybe they've put themselves into a difficult position where they're seen as the only true analyser in video gaming. Moreover, the recognition from them in the video game industry (exclusive insights, e.g. pro development of horizon) may be working against them and people see that as selling themselves out. Idk at least that's not how I see it. As of now they don't really have a large rival (only smaller independent YT channels).
The devs may have made a great game and released it a year ago, but this patch may have put too much pressure on them. I'm just hoping they'll be able to evaluate at how they want to be seen as devs in the future. Being passionate does not allow you to be unprofessional, or at least, that's how I see it.
I'm curious as to how this development may play out.
"Any findings are subjective and found by their own research. Digitalfoundry is not liable for any damage due to this video."
Perhaps they should've done that in the beginning as to prevent this from happening. They may even call every videos Tech Reviews to divert the objective stand they've been known for (imo).
Maybe devs should be transparent themselves right?
It's not like they ever make a mistake or fool us with their claims?
Another thing is, how often do your purchase decision of games end up making a difference due to digitalfoundry's videos?
I rarely did, I mostly found their videos interesting. I mean they do hundreds of videos ranging for all kind of platforms. It provides great insight as to which hardware you need (PC). It provides insight as to what techniques devs use or how stable their games run. They even cover exclusives where hardware differences don't even matter, I mean why would you need to watch a video about that other than out of interest?
Other than the difference between platforms, there is zero incentive to root for that specific console platform. As for headline clickbaity titles, look at some of the threads or YT videos in general. It's nothing unsual nowadays. Is it still fine? Perhaps not, but in this case, it was still true, objectively.
Maybe they've put themselves into a difficult position where they're seen as the only true analyser in video gaming. Moreover, the recognition from them in the video game industry (exclusive insights, e.g. pro development of horizon) may be working against them and people see that as selling themselves out. Idk at least that's not how I see it. As of now they don't really have a large rival (only smaller independent YT channels).
The devs may have made a great game and released it a year ago, but this patch may have put too much pressure on them. I'm just hoping they'll be able to evaluate at how they want to be seen as devs in the future. Being passionate does not allow you to be unprofessional, or at least, that's how I see it.
I'm curious as to how this development may play out.
Exactly. I'll be honest, I never even heard of the game till now, so to me it feels like a way for them to capitalise on some free exposure, even if it is a disgusting way of doing it.
They have the right yes. But it's an incredibly stupid thing they've done. Unprofessionally threatening to sue DF because they made a mistake only makes things worse. And doesn't change that on the same tracks, with lower settings the X version was running at worse framerate at the same resolution as the Pro version.
Maybe when performance isn't bottlenecked it can push more resolution than the Pro version does but I don't think it changes the headline.
Financial Loss on a game released in 2016 - because of a Digital Foundry "best effort" take on a game tech analysis in 2018 - literally what? :thinking:
That's a pretty crazy overreaction. DF has been a pretty trustworthy source for info, and even when they've made mistakes they're not done out of malice and are usually corrected pretty fast. I have no reason to doubt their findings here. Sounds like it makes it above 1080p so infrequently that they didn't catch it.
Fully agree with you. It was wrong of them to make a public threat of lawsuit on Twitter over an honest mistake. I personally don't think anything here merits a lawsuit but I'm not a lawyer so I simply can't make that determination. I'm just saying if 34BigThings feels they need to sue then they should have consulted their lawyers about it in private rather than make very public threats over Twitter because that behavior makes them look bad.
This is the developer's point entirely and why they certainly should be able to seek legal damages. Because of the reputation of Digital Foundry, when they misrepresent a product it inflicts damage which isn't easily repairable, even when it has already been demonstrated via alternative sources, the developer themselves, and an amendment has been made by Digital Foundry.
This is false. First, the game was released on August 29th 2017 on consoles. Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong but the entire reason for the Digital Foundry video is that the patch is new. It's not unreasonable to expect a sales boost.
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Independent Developer CEO makes an immature outburst while his product is sold in a very competitive environment = Negative press
Let me understand; you believe that this CEO's rant & dialogue of taking legal action won't impact his prospective software releases?
So Indie CEO's should speak their mind ASAP ignoring PR & basic professional courtesy?
Agreed. Now, acting upon it using negative buzzwords before factoring the repercussions puts this CEO in a Public cage match against DF & a few crazy Twitter users.
All he had to do was reply with a light-hearted generic response explaining that the technical results are being discussed with DF.
Maturity goes a long way, & that gives me confidence in their projects.
After his Tweets, I don't want to imagine what the staff environment of 34Bigthings feels like...
What's interesting there is that Doom turned out pretty much just like that video theorized only it has the unexpected bad frame pacing problem.
I know what you mean, though. I think that Doom video is the only time we've used Nintendo Direct footage as the basis for something.
WTH are you talking about? This is the DF job. What you expect? 'Hey we gonna make a tech article, but please people don't take serious. Xbox One X runs fine. PS4pro runs fine. Not matters what resolution is better. What matters is have fun playing games'...
Some people here really love read fanboys toxic comments of the youtube.
I'm just surprised that Digital Foundry still hasn't taken down the video despite it being wrong and giving the wrong impression of the game. The longer that video is up the more exposure it gets and the more of a case the developers have. Should have been removed as soon as such a major fault in the analysis was found until they can upload a newer analysis.
Right now all Digital Foundry is doing is continuing to spread misinformation and hurting the image of the game. This is clearly seen on the YouTube, Reddit and Twitter comments on DF's video. That's honestly the most dissapointing aspect of all of this for me, how Digital Foundry is handling the mistake where the developer clearly isn't happy.
Right now all Digital Foundry is doing is continuing to spread misinformation and hurting the image of the game. This is clearly seen on the YouTube, Reddit and Twitter comments on DF's video. That's honestly the most dissapointing aspect of all of this for me, how Digital Foundry is handling the mistake where the developer clearly isn't happy.
Maybe we can sue the Redout devs for false advertising. They claim that it runs at a minimum of half the resolution of 4k when in reality it's only one quarter.
Surely the devs are reading every single post in this thread given how childish they are, so here's my message for them:
DF's video had zero influence in whether I should buy this game ir not. Your reaction however made me decide I will never purchase this game, and I was curious about the Switch version. Welp! Money saved.
Sorry but if you market your game as a 4k60FPS experience and DF thinks it's 1080p because the res is actually dynamic and it's so aggressive that it allegedly runs at 1080p the majority of the time, that's more your fault than theirs for false advertising. Also it's not a 60 FPS experience at all. Sure they should update the video with corrections but your twitter crying and threatening are ridiculous and I can't believe this is coming from adults.
Disclaimer: All the contents in this post are my opinion and do not necessarily represent any facts at all. Don't sue me! ;)
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DF tells us gamers & consumers the technical aspects of software per each console which makes our investment educated, & more fun when we play it.
For awhile now, AV & media outlets test release Blu-ray & 4k films for their visual & aural quality; improper color representation, poor audio mixing, on a commercial product won't go quietly.
This could act as a case defense when people religiously thought DF was god knowing all tech analysis.
Also, analyzing a compressed Nintendo Direct footage for Doom was bad, even if the final results was arguably the same. Hope the will never be the next case, man can't take them seriously anymore. Even if both sides was careless and hurt by their audience itself.
Also, analyzing a compressed Nintendo Direct footage for Doom was bad, even if the final results was arguably the same. Hope the will never be the next case, man can't take them seriously anymore. Even if both sides was careless and hurt by their audience itself.
Maybe I've missed it, but this is worth asking outright. If we're all speaking in good faith here, it's super important to just say it openly:
Dark1x , as far as you know, are the results of the original video accurate? What methodology did you use, and if the results weren't accurate, how do you think you could improve the process moving forward to avoid it?
Testing tech, the results should be released in a way where others can (try to) reproduce those results. If you say "this game uses CB," a corresponding screenshot showing characteristic artifacting would be ideal. If you say "the game spends most of its time at [whatever] resolution," you can provide a number for percentage of time the performance falls into that range. If we don't get actual data from your testing other than a cursory selection of footage with the numbers, that's harder to do, so your audience relies on verbal characterizations for your conclusions. If your methodology isn't clear, and that's combined with questionable results (not presuming that here, just asking "if"), you lose your value to those audiences. I rely on some of your work for buying decisions. I have enough platforms that the quality of different versions for games matters enough to nudge me one way or another. That's why I care in the first place.
Dark1x , as far as you know, are the results of the original video accurate? What methodology did you use, and if the results weren't accurate, how do you think you could improve the process moving forward to avoid it?
Testing tech, the results should be released in a way where others can (try to) reproduce those results. If you say "this game uses CB," a corresponding screenshot showing characteristic artifacting would be ideal. If you say "the game spends most of its time at [whatever] resolution," you can provide a number for percentage of time the performance falls into that range. If we don't get actual data from your testing other than a cursory selection of footage with the numbers, that's harder to do, so your audience relies on verbal characterizations for your conclusions. If your methodology isn't clear, and that's combined with questionable results (not presuming that here, just asking "if"), you lose your value to those audiences. I rely on some of your work for buying decisions. I have enough platforms that the quality of different versions for games matters enough to nudge me one way or another. That's why I care in the first place.
Wait, why would they take down the video? As I understand everything is now factually correct in the video, after their correction. If I understand correctly their only mistake was that they stated that the game runs at 1080 all the time instead of most of the time.
Why? What's wrong what analyzing the information that was available at the moment and theorising? As long as they actually review the final product when the the time comes, why not? It's interesting stuff. It's not like you're forced to watch it.
DF should really stop editorializing so much. If they're supposed to be the source for technical analysis, just provide your technical findings and leave it at that.
Don't title your video "What's up with or what's the problem with...". Don't speculate about devs doing "low effort" processing on the original version and how "disappointing" it is.
All that editorializing when it's based on DF's own mistaken findings is embarrassing and I can understand why the dev would be angry.
Don't title your video "What's up with or what's the problem with...". Don't speculate about devs doing "low effort" processing on the original version and how "disappointing" it is.
All that editorializing when it's based on DF's own mistaken findings is embarrassing and I can understand why the dev would be angry.
As I said earlier, I have no involvement in this. I'm on holiday in the States (which is why I'm here posting - everyone else is asleep).
We each have our own approaches to things, though, so I really can't speak on the matter here.
Nothing in the video has been changed? Also do you have a source that it is 1080p "most of the time"? The game being a locked 1080p vs being dynamic up to 1944p is a pretty huge difference, which is why the developer is mad. Seems Digital Foundry really can do no wrong in a lot of people's eyes.
Absolutely, I completely agree with this. Especially Digital Foundry calling the patch by the developer "low effort". Ironic considering their findings ended up being inaccurate.
I wasn't annoyed at all when I made the original thread and pointed out that VGTech had different findings. Mistakes happen and I was happy to see Digital Foundry acknowledge the problem so fast. However then they do very little to reverse or at least half the damage their false coverage is causing for the developer?
In my limited programming experience, I recall there being quite a bit of mathematics at times. Hopefully, mentioning that 1080p is 50% of 4k (instead of 25%) and 1944p is 90% of 4k (instead of 81%) was just an error in their post. I watched the DF analysis, and while tough, it is easy to understand their oversight finding evidence of a dynamic resolution scaler when all of their samples suggested a 1080p render resolution with a 4k rendered UI.
It was a wholefully compressed video footage, what terms of ''information available at the moment is this? It was technically same as analyzing an official screenshot, or even a bad rendered pixel fan video. It's not the same as analyzing a demo, or a beta run, with native captured footage?
Makes the whole point of it being a joke.
But it wasn't an actual analysis. It was speculation. Are speculation videos forbidden now?
Like why the hell would you expect a tech focused channel to not speak about Doom for Switch as soon as it was announced. Of course they will, it was a super interesting port.
They're a technical editorial staff who for a long time would lay out the technical data for us to chew on, without needing to fan the console wars flames. It's not a new or rare thing and I don't think it's unreasonable or unrealistic to have higher expectations out of those responsible.
There's plenty of other toxic YT personalities that do that just fine.
Wow this turned out to be a shit storm over nothing. The people at DF are human and they have done a great job making corrections when mistakes are found. That said, I also don't agree with people calling developers lazy. It's such an ignorant, knee jerk reaction to the status of a game.
Happy I didn't buy the game though seeing the actions the studio decided to take. Holding DF accountable over the publics reaction to an honest mistake is not the way you handle this.
Happy I didn't buy the game though seeing the actions the studio decided to take. Holding DF accountable over the publics reaction to an honest mistake is not the way you handle this.
I'm gonna make a game that renders at 8k only if you stand still in a specific point of a specific map and then do the konami code 3 times, and only during one frame. The rest of the time it will render at 720p.
Then I will sue DF when their pixelcount reads 720p.
Then I will sue DF when their pixelcount reads 720p.
I think the issue the developer has more than anything is the incorrect analysis YouTube video has remained up unchanged besides a small blurb in the description.
Even more important than this, 1944p is not 90% of 4k. While both show mathematical errors, the fact that the game only has an upper limit of 81% of 4k seems to be a bigger drawback, at least to me. The update was marketed as 4k dynamic and it doesn't appear to get close to 4k.
"We won't tolerate lies"
Proceeds to lie about the % of 4k resolution their game (sometimes) runs at.
They can definitely 'do wrong', I wasn't a fan of them teaming up with Microsoft for the XB1X launch for example, I've always found reviewers partnering with companies whose products they'll review murky, even though I know it's commonplace in tech.
However, at the moment I trust them far more than a developer who not only is acting extremely unprofessionally (seriously, is this their first job? they need to learn how to respond professionally to negative feedback, it's the most basic of soft skills that's required for any job, really), but also downright contradict themselves (in what I'd definitely call a maliciously misleading way, implying that 50% of 4k is 1080) in the same post as calling out DF as 'liars'. It just leaves a worse impression than making an honest mistake (unless you can come up with a theory on why DF would do this intentionally).
They did update their video and added this to the description:
Though indeed you're right about there being no source on 'most of the time'. I just assumed this to be the case, as DF implied in their video description that their error came from all the random shots that they pixel counted being 1080, which implies it's more common than not. I looked at VGT's analysis and they just confirm the high/low resolution limits, but not the distribution, so there's no definitive source either way.
I hope DF's follow-up video will clarify further how bad/good the scaling is, as they said in the update.
That's the whole point of it being a joke, same as Blunty's video of Skyrim PC locked at Switch specs. I guess some people really not care and excited for this kind of speculations, but the big downside of making it from a not so reliable material is inducing audience misdirection, particularly from them assuming that analyzing this type of material is good move, and can be act as trustworthy comparison of the final product.
Makes me wonder how this can came for so called respected DF itself, even to the point of doubting them producing this as bait for views from console wars people. At the end I just love for DF to keep the standards.
According to DF they did that with the PS4 Pro and the Xbox One X. Stated they put out a checkerboard 4k and an 4k mode respectively.
PS4 Pro still does 1080p tho. So... ???
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