OP
OP
I mean, in the last episode of Voyager she basically murders an untold number of people by erasing them from history.
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25 Years Ago Today, The Most Boring And Least Controversial Episode Of Star Trek Aired...
- Thread starter DrForester
- Start date
I mean, in the last episode of Voyager she basically murders an untold number of people by erasing them from history.
Who gets erased from history with the altered timeline where Voyager gets home?
OP
OP
Everyone born in that timeline. Naomi had a kid in that timeline who certainly isn't born if she arrives home nearly 2 decades earlier.
Technically, Harry Kim altered the timeline first anyway. The whole Voyager crew died before he changed history.
OP
OP
He did and it would be the same thing. It's not a case of something like first contact where they're changing history to save humanity. They're doing it to assuage their own guilt.
Damn 😂
Janeway best captain. Tuvix deserved to die and I hope he burns in hell.
False. Tuvix was a better cook than Neelix and a better officer than Tuvok, but he couldn't fill both posts at the same time. He was still one body. Tuvix stans overvalue his skills and undervalue the extra manhours gained by murdering him.
That would make sense, but apparently that transporter malfunction has never been intentionally reproduced. Because then they'd just be popping out Picards to captain every ship in the fleet or whatever: it would just kind of break the world in a fundamental way, y'know?
You're not going to need a cook at the same time you need a first officer. And you're going to save more lives having a superior first officer who's the superior part time head chef than you are having a inferior first officer and an inferior head chef full time.
It's worse. She actively made the decision to bring Neelix back to life.
You can't blame Janeway for that. That is the time cops' fault. If they were better at their job, they would have stopped her from changing the past.
Neelix is one of the best characters in Star Trek and the most funny. I'm waiting and hoping for Star Trek: Neelix on Paramount+.
The series ends with Janeway wiping out two generations of people who grew up knowing her because her good end of getting home with her crew and their families after 40 or so years wasn't good enough.
And let me more directly address the post I quoted, because it does bare addressing:
Evil Kirk - Was both evil AND Kirk. Putting aside the argument of self determination and accepting that he was, in fact, a different person entirely, he was still an active danger to others who had harmed people and would further harm people. At worst it was an illegal summary execution of someone who had done something to warrant that act. Tuvix had done no such thing. Moreover, if we're equating Tuvix with what happened to Kirk: All of Tuvix said no. Half of Kirk said yes.
Sisko - Yes and the show treats the things Sisko does with the weight and consequences it deserves. As you yourself point out the show isn't afraid to call Sisko's actions criminal when they are. This isn't the case with Janeway, partly because a lot of the philosophy behind the show was allergic to the serialization found in DS9. Moreover, Sisko does not commit those acts because he's sad that two of his friends are gone.
If you're gonna write Janeway as someone who will burn the world down for the people she's close to, actually make that decision. It's a legitimately interesting character to explore. Especially in the context of Voyager's premise. But while the writing often has her doing just that, the show never treats the character like that is the intention. And never explores or examines it as a character trait.
There is no mirror universe Tuvix. You see Tuvok fighting with the Terran Resistance in an episode of DS9 that takes place after Voyager would have been sent to the Delta Quadrant.
Tuvok (mirror)
Tuvok was a Vulcan member of the Terran Rebellion against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe. Typical of his species, he was notably less impulsive than other members of the Rebellion, such as Julian Bashir and Rom, and preferred a logical approach to combating the Alliance...
memory-alpha.fandom.com
I see. Does Voyager even go to the Delta Quadrant in the mirror universe or is that not known?There is no mirror universe Tuvix. You see Tuvok fighting with the Terran Resistance in an episode of DS9 that takes place after Voyager would have been sent to the Delta Quadrant.
Tuvok (mirror)
Tuvok was a Vulcan member of the Terran Rebellion against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe. Typical of his species, he was notably less impulsive than other members of the Rebellion, such as Julian Bashir and Rom, and preferred a logical approach to combating the Alliance...
There is no Voyager in the Mirror Universe.
The Terran Empire had long been conquered and subjugated by the alliance between the Klingons, the Cardassians, and the Bajorans. In the 24th century the Mirror Universe no longer had an "evil version" of our Starfleet heroes, but rather a rag-tag scoundrel resistance version of a conquered society. So there was no Mirror Voyager, unless they used that name for some scrappy rebel fighter.
It made sense for Deep Space Nine, I suppose, especially if you didn't really want to watch mirror versions of our Starfleet people act like Cardassian oppressors to the Bajorans, for example. It made for a setup where the Bajorans could be the conquerer and evil in this version.
But it kind of deflated the premise of the Mirror Universe a bit, if you ask me. Now it's just an alternate timeline, really, instead of an inversion of "our" universe.
There probably isn't even a Voyager. By the DS9 era, the Terran Empire had fallen and Terrans were slaves to the Cardassians and Klingons.
There wouldn't be one. The only reason they had a Defiant was because they stole the plans from the main universe. Don't ask me how they built it though!
I'd have had them replicate the teleporter duplication glitch, get back Tuvok and Neelix while keeping Tuvix, and then have a running "my two dads" interaction despite Tuvix repeatedly insisting for them to knock it off.
"STOP TREATING ME LIKE A CHILD! I AM LITERALLY YOU COMBINED WITH HIM."
"Does somebody need a hug?"
"...yes."
"STOP TREATING ME LIKE A CHILD! I AM LITERALLY YOU COMBINED WITH HIM."
"Does somebody need a hug?"
"...yes."
It's such a bizarre episode because there is no moral quandary between the characters, nothing to grapple with much less any consequence later. It's like the writers were blindsided by the fact that the show needed to reset for next week and just had Janeway unilaterally decide to do it with no internal justification, against everyone else's wishes in the last 5 minutes.
Worth noting that Discovery seems to have potentially made massive changes to the mirror universe timeline. The Terran Empire may not have fallen this time around.
It's a Trolley Problem: save two lives by sacrificing one. In the typical formulation, most people agree: throw the switch, divert the trolley, 2 > 1. But in other versions, things get hairy. For instance, if you've got two dying patients who need kidneys, and one innocent, completely unrelated person who's healthy in the hospital waiting room and happens to be a match, is it okay to yank out his kidneys to save them? 2 > 1, right? Yet most people stop seeing that as an okay tradeoff all of a sudden.
And especially the way the episode shows it: it's intense. Tuvix begs for his life, the rest of the crew doesn't help him but just looks away in shame. The Doctor, the runaway favorite character in the show, refuses to perform the procedure, so Janeway pushes the button herself. Like, it's clearly depicted as dark gray at best:
There is zero ethical way to return Tuvok and Neelix without Tuvix consenting. That's what the issue should have been, rather than Janeway just deciding murder to get her friend (and annoying alien) is ok. Appeal to the sense of duty Tuvok had and the willingness to sacrifice himself for the good of the crew. Appeal to the empathy (lol I am stretching here) of Neelix. Have the crew not be comfortable with Tuvix not making the sacrifice and it manifest in how they treat him.
Its just lazy to have Janeway murder the guy.
Its just lazy to have Janeway murder the guy.
I'll give the episode credit for not taking the easy way out and saying like "oh they had to be seperate Tuvix was dying" or something.
Episodes usually have an in universe justification for returning to the status quo but not this.
An interesting exploration of a captain going off the deep end. It's not In the Pale Moonlight but nothing is.
Episodes usually have an in universe justification for returning to the status quo but not this.
An interesting exploration of a captain going off the deep end. It's not In the Pale Moonlight but nothing is.
Does it change anyone's approach to this episode to realize that it is an oblique abortion-rights allegory?
Two "parents," both must die for the "child" to live. Both parents are unconscious/unable to assent to the procedure or decision.
It's not quite so obvious as "Up the Long Ladder" when Riker and Polaski both phasered their stolen clones and practically said "My body, my choice."
As a Star Trek sci-fi allegory premise, it's perfect, as evidenced by the fact we're still arguing about it 25 years later. The allegory intentionally made more blurry and grey due to the grown-child result of the premise, but doesn't that even bring more of a fine point to the allegory? By depicting the final result of the realized person who would be aborted, the right-wing argument of the "consider the future person to be murdered!" is made whole before you, arguing for his life.
Does that still obviate the choice of the two people whose bodies were used to make this third, without their consent? Does it matter that the transporter essentially forced both Tuvok and Neelix to molecularly rape and murder each other into a new being?
As it is, the fact that an abortion-allegory story remains the sticking point for vast cadres of internet.... dudes... who twenty five years later still want to use the episode as condemnation that Janeway is a murderer... triggers my Spidey-Sense.
Two "parents," both must die for the "child" to live. Both parents are unconscious/unable to assent to the procedure or decision.
It's not quite so obvious as "Up the Long Ladder" when Riker and Polaski both phasered their stolen clones and practically said "My body, my choice."
As a Star Trek sci-fi allegory premise, it's perfect, as evidenced by the fact we're still arguing about it 25 years later. The allegory intentionally made more blurry and grey due to the grown-child result of the premise, but doesn't that even bring more of a fine point to the allegory? By depicting the final result of the realized person who would be aborted, the right-wing argument of the "consider the future person to be murdered!" is made whole before you, arguing for his life.
Does that still obviate the choice of the two people whose bodies were used to make this third, without their consent? Does it matter that the transporter essentially forced both Tuvok and Neelix to molecularly rape and murder each other into a new being?
As it is, the fact that an abortion-allegory story remains the sticking point for vast cadres of internet.... dudes... who twenty five years later still want to use the episode as condemnation that Janeway is a murderer... triggers my Spidey-Sense.
it's a bad abortion allegory if that's what it is. the self determination of everyone involved is inverted.
That's what makes it brilliant. It asks if you're still willing to support the rights and choice of the unconscious, non-consenting parents when faced with the end result of the child, fully-grown, arguing for his right to exist.
If it was a 'good' allegory would it have a simple moral answer that wouldn't still be under debate 25 years later?
Janeway doing whatever it takes for Tuvok is pretty consistent in the series from what i remember. Let's just say that if going home in the first episode would have saved Tuvok's life than they would be home and fuck whatever dumb reason she gave for stranding the crew in the Delta Quadrant.
I don't care what anyone says, for a Star Fleet captain her decision with Tuvix was pretty damning.
I don't care what anyone says, for a Star Fleet captain her decision with Tuvix was pretty damning.
Well I think the fact there's no question Neelix, Tuvok or Tuvix are all living, sentient beings, and the fact that two lives must be sacrificed for one, makes it too different to abortion to make that allegory. It's really more of a utilitarian ethical issue, a trolley problem.
But even if I grant you it's an abortion allegory, why should people not call Janeway a murderer? It's not Janeway's body. She makes a decision to kill the child without consulting the parent/s. Even a pro choice person would find an abortion conducted without the consent of parents abominable, or at least I hope they would.
Every time the crew saw tuvix, they had to consider it could happen to them... it's only a matter of time until people start refusing to use the transporter.
I would have spaced him.
I would have spaced him.
We don't call doctors murderers if they aborted fetuses is to save unconscious mothers' lives. I'm not sure the what the medical rules are that govern the situation, but I'm sure it has come up, and as a result the rules exist.
Janeway's not the Doctor. The Doctor in this episode refuses to do the procedure citing the Hippocratic Oath, and Janeway, not a doctor, does it anyway over everyone's objections.
Difficult to see how that wouldn't be a violation of medical rules and probably criminal law.
As someone who only knows this debate through the memes, my greatest question is why he is Tuvix, instead of rather, Neevok?
Maybe for the Doctor's programming, the fact that Tuvix is not a child and therefore dependent on the parents for survival, pushes it over the line. His measure of life and survivability takes paramount.
Maybe for Janeway, her knowledge of the people and the fact that there is no way either character would have--before the accident--elected or chosen in any way to continue their existence merged with the individual with which they were transporter-rape-destroyed, assured her that there could be not consent in this merging and forming of a new life. And so for her the choice and consent of the lives destroyed becomes paramount.
More to the point: Doctors are not called upon, like Captains, to ask people to lay down their lives in service of others', at the Captain's word and command.
I'm still freaked out from the transporter malfunction in The Motion Picture, and I'm not someone who will ever have to use a real transporter. It's crazy to me that so few people in Star Fleet seem afraid of it in general.
Like, 25% of the time I watch Star Trek and someone uses a transporter I just go 'what we got back didn't live long, fortunately.'