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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
The 1st pic just shows what we're all saying, generic design. It's not just about the face as you're implying. It's the general appeal. When I look at this, I don't think 'whoa look at this character! Seems interesting. What's the story behind this character? I want to find out and play the game!'
I and many other people did soo...

I can't recall the narrative behind Returnal's reception being "This game is great in spite of this white woman being generic, not gonna really elaborate on that."

Funny that you picked the 2nd pic because that shot is so horrible and underlines how unappealing the design is. They showed that shot a billion times in the PS showcases and I was shaking my head the whole time (even worse that the animation in that scene is so off). Even a closeup like that where you don't see the random space suit is just generic.
In comparison to WHAT? You keep using coded speak, "unappealing" "generic." Say what you mean. What changes would you make to make the face of this real actress more..."appealing."

When one of the most praised character designs in gaming ever is Master Chief, or Link, (and I LOVE looking at them they inherently me hype), I would like to kindly ask y'all to miss me with that noise.
 
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Briareos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,041
Maine
Bless this thread for reminding us how much work there still is to do.

Meanwhile, Ana from OW still winning best character of the last ten years. Even her quotes are the best.

"Children, behave!"

"Need someone to tuck you in?"

"Shh. The adults are talking."
 

ioriyagami

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,365
The 1st pic just shows what we're all saying, generic design. It's not just about the face as you're implying. It's the general appeal. When I look at this, I don't think 'whoa look at this character! Seems interesting. What's the story behind this character? I want to find out and play the game!'
Instead I'm thinking 'meh, random woman with a random ass space suit. Go on.'

Funny that you picked the 2nd pic because that shot is so horrible and underlines how unappealing the design is. They showed that shot a billion times in the PS showcases and I was shaking my head the whole time (even worse that the animation in that scene is so off). Even a closeup like that where you don't see the random space suit is just generic.

You can do realistic design and still be appealing. There are a lot of games that do that. This one however does not at all. Looks more like a random NPC in a space game.

How many female main characters you've seen that are middle-aged and not especially attractive? And have short hair, and segmental heterochromia? Care to put an example of a better comparable realistic design you say so many games have?
 
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Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,183
Buenos Aires, Argentina
*Points at avatar*

I loved Melanie's design in Voice of Cards. Everyone in the game had amazing artwork.

51504092148_c8bba8c04a_h.jpg


Someone's gonna point out the heels but I think in this case they complement the design. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a character roaming the world but what in JRPGs does?
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
Why is this thread even so focused on eternal and the apparent genericness of having a white woman, (in a medium that still predominently features male characters....) when OP also led with Juliana
E_LxVl8WQAI15dH.jpg:large



and Rivet
02_Rivet.png


or are these "artless" "unappealing" and "generic" too?
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
...because people don't disagree with these two examples? What a weird question to ask.
Someone had an entire tirade about how the narrative in threads lie these is that by default generic designs are posted if only because of a lack of sexualization and that that's the metric for good character design on this forum. Another person went on a tirade about how we've just traded angry white dudes for angry white women. Both are, remarkably untrue statements.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,183
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Someone had an entire tirade about how the narrative in threads lie these is that by default generic designs are posted if only because of a lack of sexualization and that that's the metric for good character design on this forum. Another person went on a tirade about how we've just traded angry white dudes for angry white women. Both are, remarkably untrue statements.
Well the first I've definitely seen happen.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
Well the first I've definitely seen happen.
Uh no, it's not. What HAS happened, and I can say this as someone who frequently participates in such discussions. Is that people have embraced a new trend of less over the top and/or sexualized designs for women in games. Because there's been a near industry wide change where character designs for women didn't stop at "how do we make her hot???" and you'd be hardpressed to find concept art notes that look like this:
harley04.jpg


As I said, in an industry where Master Chief and Link are considered icons and exemplary examples of character design, miss me with that "hmm, this woman seems generic" noise.
 

Cruella

Member
May 5, 2021
303
To be generic you need to be common place. Middle-aged men are everywhere, but middle-aged no-nonsense woman as MC is far from it. I've seen a ton of gamers triggered by fact that devs dared to create female character who isn't there for you to want to fuck her, complaining that no one wants to look at old (40+ is old now) woman with wrinkles. Seemed like they aren't used to this "generic" design.

I feel like Selene's face has a lot of character, you can tell that she has a past, that she's a fighter, etc. She looks realistic, but that's opposite of generic for a woman in video game.

Madame Dimetrescu is also great design. She's sexy in stylish way, and despite being a giantess, manages to have realistic body proportions! As a woman with big tits/ass it's refreshing to see someone with shapely body who doesn't look like they are about to break in two.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,183
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Uh no, it's not. What HAS happened, and I can say this as someone who frequently participates in such discussions. Is that people have embraced a new trend of less over the top and/or sexualized designs for women in games. Because there's been a near industry wide change where character designs for women didn't stop at "how do we make her hot???" and you'd be hardpressed to find concept art notes that look like this:
harley04.jpg


As I said, in an industry where Master Chief and Link are considered icons, miss me with that noise.
Nah man, it absolutely happens in this place. I'm not saying it happens all the time but enough times to notice a pattern.

And I embrace the change too, I'm tired of sexualized bullshit as well, but you're in denial if you don't believe some unremarkable designs are being touted as improvements because they're unremarkable. Again, the fact that people are only saying this about Selene but not Rivet or Julianna points to this, as none of them are sexualized but two of them actually have sleek, memorable designs.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,045
Mexico is not as diverse as the US (no country is, really) but we have our own diversity.
Tangential to the thread, but I'm just going to pop in to point out that this is a really Eurocentric view. The USA is still a prominently white country, and while it's diverse compared to white countries, it doesn't really compare the same way to countries that are primarily just a diverse clash of people who have all been united as a single polity. There's a lot of genetic and cultural diversity native to Africa - which is where humans come from and have there the longest - as well as in Asia - where most of the human race is located right now.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
Nah man, it absolutely happens in this place. I'm not saying it happens all the time but enough times to notice a pattern.
Post examples of threads where that happened. Like, actual generic designs don't tend to get posted in those threads. And most people never define what "generic" actually means. When I think generic, I think of that entire console generation where game devs iterated on Nathan Drake over and over and over again because it was successful and popular. Or the many character designs of the PS2 era where owtheedge was commonplace and every character was an angry edgy take on existing IPs. Last gen though? Devs were going ham. SO many distinct designs that fit the actual context of their world just like male characters did for decades. I cannot imagine anyone in good faith calling Aloy generic because there are literally no characters in mainstream gaming that look like Aloy. And same goes for Selene. Where is this apparent trend of middle aged white women in gaming? Because i'm thinking about it, and the first person that came to mind was Maria in TLOU who's in the game for all of five minutes.
soa-lee-soalee2020-maria-outfit.jpg


And I embrace the change too, I'm tired of sexualized bullshit as well, but you're in denial if you don't believe some unremarkable designs are being touted as improvements because they're unremarkable. Again, the fact that people are only saying this about Selene but not Rivet or Julianna points to this, as none of them are sexualized but two of them actually have sleek, memorable designs.
The thread derailed into a conversation about Selene specifically on the last page once someone called her generic for being a white woman. That otherwise wasn't the sentiment as presented ITT.
 
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Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,771
Can we can have one single thread about positive female characters that doesn't devolve in to snarking at each other or running to other threads to complain about fellow users?
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,926
United States
Cortana never had any issues. Her design in Halo 4 was also modeled entirely off of her mocap actress.
I just watched a video today where the lead story writer confirmed Jen Taylor's first ever mocap performance was The Weapon.

Where are you getting this from?

My problem with Cortana as the series progressed has been the fact she has become more and more impossibly proportioned like men were designing her to look how they wished she looked. Given the story behind how and why Cortana presents herself the way she does, I started hating that she looked like a horny dude designed her.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Looks like a random space suit if you ask me. It's really nothing special. Just there and functioning as intended which is to be generic.

How many games have you played in the last even ten years where a woman looked like this in game?

Returnal_20210420194931.0.jpg


Like fucking zero.

This isn't real life, or hell, even film. It's video games.
Generic is Anime girl with random windows in her bodysuit #50
not
blond spacesuit woman
 
Jun 24, 2021
1,637
How many games have you played in the last even ten years where a woman looked like this in game?

Returnal_20210420194931.0.jpg


Like fucking zero.

This isn't real life, or hell, even film. It's video games.
Generic is Anime girl with random windows in her bodysuit #50
not
blond spacesuit woman
I do get your point but it's not "fucking zero". I literally played an awesome game last month starring a blonde woman in an awesome sci Fi space suit! 2 ain't a crowd so your point still stands that these characters are exceptions and not the rule but any excuse for me to bring out the 2021 GOTY Metroid Dread.
 

kimbo99

Member
Feb 21, 2021
4,799
This thread is a good reminder of how we are progressing to more inclusion of Female protagonists and main characters in video games.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Shoka from NEO TWEWY is my favorite character of the year and has my fav design.

latest


She looks so damn cool.
I just can't with Nomura.
She looks literally just like a character in FF14 what the hell

Edit: Oh, Nomura, that makes sense. I think he designed both. How odd that they look exactly the same though.
This isn't even a Tetsuya Nomura character. This was designed by Gen Kobayashi.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
I do get your point but it's not "fucking zero". I literally played an awesome game last month starring a blonde woman in an awesome sci Fi space suit! 2 ain't a crowd so your point still stands that these characters are exceptions and not the rule but any excuse for me to bring out the 2021 GOTY Metroid Dread.

Samus is an established design that is more like power armor than space suit. It's not like she very radically changed more than suit colors in 30 years.

also, and i realize you acknowledged this. The fact that your two games were "one new character and another 30+ year old character that has often been neglected" isn't a big pool to say "generic"
 
Jun 24, 2021
1,637
Samus is an established design that is more like power armor than space suit. It's not like she very radically changed more than suit colors in 30 years.
Have you played Dread yet? Have you seen her starting Dread suit? I realize we're diving into semantics (her power armor is also a space suit) but I consider some of the suits in Dread a more drastic departure than just suit color changes.

Other than that I agree.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
*Points at avatar*

I loved Melanie's design in Voice of Cards. Everyone in the game had amazing artwork.

51504092148_c8bba8c04a_h.jpg


Someone's gonna point out the heels but I think in this case they complement the design. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a character roaming the world but what in JRPGs does?

::high pitched: WELL...

I do love your example, save for those heels, dear god. But I would take most of the designs in Voice of Cards over most other games. But that game still has nonsense like this.


aSnoXzfG0s3dJxmLGtCnp5aV-YMUU5URvzOk8nDsMzE.jpg


But you're right, doing better than most.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Have you played Dread yet? Have you seen her starting Dread suit? I realize we're diving into semantics (her power armor is also a space suit) but I consider some of the suits in Dread a more drastic departure than just suit color changes.

Other than that I agree.

I mean, it's not nearly as radical as the fusion change, or her light/Dark suit from MP2.
I mean, i've beat dread, but I wouldn't have to have played it to look at a picture and conclude otherwise.
Maybe her metroid form, but that's so brief and inconsequential as to be negligible
It's just white and blue, but it's still very close in silhouette.

 

J 0 E

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,274
Folks mentioned a lot of great female characters this year like Selene the queen.
Yuffie is also one of the great female characters of 2021.

EvG_fbgU4AMZRwz.jpg
 

Anaron

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,645
User banned (2 weeks): Dismissing concerns around representation and sexualized designs; history of drive-by trolling
💯💯

Character design discourse on Era really hasn't evolved beyond the hardline anti-sexualization mindset that seemed to explode in popularity partway into the 7th console generation. Boring, artless shit.

Watching users in this thread parade around the blandest, frumpiest, most unseasoned* outfits as "GrEaT cHaRaCtER dEsIGn" at the expense of some genuinely striking (and usually Japanese) design work is painful.

*Obviously I'm being hyperbolic, but this is a thread where a middle-aged white woman in a space suit is being treated as some sort of artistic revelation, so when in Rome... 🤷🏾‍♂️
Hahaha

so true
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,112
or are these "artless" "unappealing" and "generic" too?
At first I honestly thought Rivet's design was kind of boring or just "Lady Ratchet" but eventually every time the game would switch me back to playing Ratchet for a mission I'd find myself thinking "man I'd rather just be Rivet the entire time". It dawned on me that in general I just liked her more as a character; her quips, her voice-acting, her appearance, etc. I think that probably speaks to the strength of her design more than anything else.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
I just watched a video today where the lead story writer confirmed Jen Taylor's first ever mocap performance was The Weapon.

Where are you getting this from?

My problem with Cortana as the series progressed has been the fact she has become more and more impossibly proportioned like men were designing her to look how they wished she looked. Given the story behind how and why Cortana presents herself the way she does, I started hating that she looked like a horny dude designed her.
In Halo 4 her mocap actress was an entirely different actress. Jen Taylor only did the voice recordings.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,363
Canada
How many games have you played in the last even ten years where a woman looked like this in game?

Returnal_20210420194931.0.jpg


Like fucking zero.

This isn't real life, or hell, even film. It's video games.
Generic is Anime girl with random windows in her bodysuit #50
not
blond spacesuit woman

Meryl-streep.gif


It's a good design. And the backlash is more proof that the bar women have to clear for "acceptability" (or certainly to "not look typical") is much higher.
They can't just look normal; and if they do it isn't good enough. But it's more than that, even during the debut people were put off playing an even slightly older woman. Returnal is a good game with a great hero; part of that is her believably as one.

💯💯

Character design discourse on Era really hasn't evolved beyond the hardline anti-sexualization mindset that seemed to explode in popularity partway into the 7th console generation. Boring, artless shit.

Watching users in this thread parade around the blandest, frumpiest, most unseasoned* outfits as "GrEaT cHaRaCtER dEsIGn" at the expense of some genuinely striking (and usually Japanese) design work is painful.

*Obviously I'm being hyperbolic, but this is a thread where a middle-aged white woman in a space suit is being treated as some sort of artistic revelation, so when in Rome... 🤷🏾‍♂️

The hell else was she "supposed" to look like??
Angrier? Longer hair? Smooth skin? Multi-coloured hair? Giant armored space suit? Not all games need to clear the same checklist for what's good. It just needs to work in its own universe.

And the hell to the highlighted part. Given how pervasive sexualized designs ARE in this industry (even movies are getting a hint); it's sad that it's a standard we need to search for and get met with a LOT of angry nerd resistance who feel "their titties are being taken away". Does the Blizzard Activision thing set off any flags? Women are constantly harassed in the same industry that practically loves making pin-up models for heroines. We literally have a massive thread (on it's THIRD OT) of how damn often this happens and usually with absolutely zero chill (bikini outfits + pervy cameras), and it's incredibly belittling when we can't celebrate something that is too practical when it totally fits the game. >_>

www.resetera.com

Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape." OT

"surely that title can't be an actual quote by an actual resetera poster," i hear you say. to which i reply: oh my sweet summer child i used to give a fuck about making these ops seem professional so the Gamers wouldn't be scared away but i dont give a fuck anymore so here's the lowdown...

Japanese characters have some AMAZING designs. But let's not kid ourselves like 90% of the women in fighting games aren't absolutely paraded around for their sex appeal, whether or not the outfit makes sense, whether or not their tits wouldn't fly out of half their outfits.

b9vrys61eefz.jpg
c13f391e869ff88d6e243a8b1876e37a.jpg
wrU4cop.png


NO male character gets the same amount of "ink" about their design process as women do. Where's even the male equivalent of this thread? No one cares; because it's already fine and are not the ones often marked for their over-sexuality.

It's all moot anyways. This is an opinion thread. Most designs in here are fair game and very good and stand out in many positive ways.
 
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Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,363
Canada
Shoka from NEO TWEWY is my favorite character of the year and has my fav design.

latest


She looks so damn cool.

NEO killed it. The blend of kinda-gamey, kinda-urban, kinda-caricature looks are a lot of fun and give each character such a unique personality and flavour. When you see it, you absolutely believe this game takes place in a big shopping district of a major city.

976
1000
930

856
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
In Halo 4 her mocap actress was an entirely different actress. Jen Taylor only did the voice recordings.
Cortana isn't based on Mackenzie.
cortana3-610x915.jpg

66974d7c3d9e05243ce53f30551a15c9.jpg



For reference, her body is a combination of two people while her is face someone else entirely. Her performance capture was Mackenzie Mason, and ofc her voice was Jen Taylor. From the credits of halo 4.
  • Jen Taylor (voice)
  • Mackenzie Mason (performance)
  • Frances Ingraham (body)
  • Katrina Le (body)
  • Paisha [Coffey] (face)
 

Favi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,974
It's a good design. And the backlash is more proof that the bar women have to clear for "acceptability" is much higher.
They can't just look normal; and if they do it isn't good enough. But it's more than that, even during the debut people were put off playing an even slightly older woman. Returnal is a good game with a great hero; part of that is her believably as one.
I'm pretty sure the people criticizing Selena's design also think the same about "normal looking" male characters. It's just a matter of taste, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like they are saying it's bad because it's not sexualized enough, most complains I see are about the outfit being too normal, and they liking more stylized and fantastical designs (even if they don't make much sense).

The complains about she being a blonde older woman are weird though.

NEO killed it. The blend of kinda-gamey, kinda-urban, kinda-caricature looks are a lot of fun and give each character such a unique personality and flavour. When you see it, you absolutely believe this game takes place in a big shopping district of a major city.

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856
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Yup. They are all great. The art direction on NEO is amazing all around.
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,314
A Krysten Ritter and Anne Hathaway phase to be more specific. These characters look so alike the actresses... lol

images

Especially Gaia, she literally looks like teenage Jessica Jones haha.

On that note, she actually belongs in this thread too because other than the stupid metal heels which even the characters in game dunk on her for, her design is tasteful and interesting.
 

Keiriks

Omicron Persei 8 Logic
Member
Aug 19, 2021
6,154
Reykjavík, Iceland
NEO killed it. The blend of kinda-gamey, kinda-urban, kinda-caricature looks are a lot of fun and give each character such a unique personality and flavour. When you see it, you absolutely believe this game takes place in a big shopping district of a major city.

976
1000
930

856
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Hell yeah, NEO is such a great modernisation of TWEWY's original mid aughts Shibuya/Harajuku aesthetic.
 

Ciao

Member
Jun 14, 2018
4,853
Bless this thread for reminding us how much work there still is to do.

Meanwhile, Ana from OW still winning best character of the last ten years. Even her quotes are the best.

"Children, behave!"

"Need someone to tuck you in?"

"Shh. The adults are talking."

My main, and I have all three of those lines in my quip wheel! She's the best chara design in a game choke full of excellent chara designs.