All quiet on the tax front. Less than 10 hours of T-day left to Bernie.
1) Economics is cyclical (1b) and as such regulation is needed to prevent tragedies)
2) austerity doesnt work
It's not like everything is settled- there's tons of debate out there, but there are big electric fences that get you zapped and ignored if you go out of bounds.To be fair, the 2 basic principles of Kynes that Kirblar covered already are basically inarguable and anyone from the center to the left should "believe" them
A gigantic problem with communism is that under a communist system, business and government are explicitly the same thing, and without even touching on the market issues that creates (Blockbuster dying is an example of a good thing! that's not really possible if the businesses are state controlled because the state can't die) that consolidation of power brings with it enormous problems, both in terms of a lack of innate check/balances and safety valves and means to redress concerns- a reason the emoluments clause exists.My problem with economic orthodoxy (neoclassical or Keynesian) is that, from an armchair perspective, it's plain most people don't want to admit that capitalism creates, and in many ways incentivizes its own bad actors, which they then blame for capitalism's failures.
A common rebuttal towards communism is that "people are bad innately". Setting aside the philosophical nature of that claim, they are just as bad under capitalism, but capitalism supporters think we can regulate the economy to such an extent as to stamp out most bad actors. Which is curious because they won't extend the same line of thought towards communism, that we can stamp out bad actors to reach a more-or-less stable equilibrium.
The state doesn't exist in a communist society. You're missing the very basic definitions here and arguing against things you've made up in your head.A gigantic problem with communism is that under a communist system, business and government are explicitly the same thing, and without even touching on the market issues that creates (Blockbuster dying is an example of a good thing! that's not really possible if the businesses are state controlled because the state can't die) that consolidation of power brings with it enormous problems, both in terms of a lack of innate check/balances and safety valves and means to redress concerns- a reason the emoluments clause exists.
The state doesn't exist in a communist society. You're missing the very basic definitions here and arguing against things you've made up in your head.
Social contracts.
Social contracts.
Municipal level justice (under some models of municipalism).
The elimination of scarcity to also reduce bad actors to a bare minimum.
Why are you not a bad actor in the current system? What compels someone to be a bad actor? Where does greed come from? What does greed mean in a society where property doesn't exist? These aren't idealistic, fantastic, utopian questions. They're foundational to our conceptions of society.
I'm explaining the philosophy, I make no claims of what I personally believe.
What makes you think there would? "Greed", as it's understood in modern civilization, was born out of scarcity.Assuming we can get rid of scarcity, what makes you think there won't be greed?
The problem is that Democracy's a terrible, horribly inefficient system for a large number of things when it comes to resource management. Capitalism is very much not perfect, but the self-interest at the heart of it is what allows it to work as an economic engine.That's why some of us are gun-ho about direct democracy. The point is to decentralize power as much as possible, not necessarily because it's a panacea to representative ills.
A stateless society is a made-up thing that exists only in people's heads. A police/military force for internal/external defense of the populace are basic societal necessities.The state doesn't exist in a communist society. You're missing the very basic definitions here and arguing against things you've made up in your head.
So do I. The problem is, for me, that capitalism directly empowers greed and incentivizes game-rigging. I don't know how you get over that. I can only assume you consider it a necessary evil to reap the benefits of market capitalism.That distrust of humanity is really at the core of the politics of someone like Elizabeth Warren. She's a hardcore capitalist. She also doesn't trust the players in the game not to try to rig it for themselves.
Nobody is stopping you from posting another one of Marianne's tweets for everyone to ignore if you want to stay on topic.At the very least socialism, or some of its proponents, derails threads. It's like no one wants to discuss it in the appropriate spaces.
We're born, we reproduce, we raise children, we die. (collectively speaking) Some people will try and hoard resources for themselves or their family. Some will actively try and harm others because they are sociopaths and actively enjoy it.So do I. The problem is, for me, that capitalism directly empowers greed and incentivizes game-rigging. I don't know how you get over that. I can only assume you consider it a necessary evil for the benefits of market capitalism.
I was trying to avoid reporting the derail.Nobody is stopping you from posting another one of Marianne's tweets for everyone to ignore if you want to stay on topic.
It's true. Some folks insist on making the Democratic Primary thread the socialist knitting circle despite the number of times being asked not to do that.At the very least socialism, or some of its proponents, derails threads. It's like no one wants to discuss it in the appropriate spaces.
That's just it. There is no cure. It's an eternal disease (though one where future generations may be less shitty because of less lead poisoning.)Don't get me wrong, I'm all for regulation. It's just that I think regulation is kind of like treating cancer by surgerically removing tumors. It's a necessary part of long-term treatment, but it's not a cure.
Yup. That did it for me too.
Who cares? The conversation will be over soon enough when something else of note happens related to the primary that people want to talk about more.
So then we should all just die.That's just it. There is no cure. It's an eternal disease (though one where future generations may be less shitty because of less lead poisoning.)
Yup. It's almost like it's organized. Like unwanted solicitors with their foot in the door.It's true. Some folks insist on making the Democratic Primary thread the socialist knitting circle despite the number of times being asked not to do that.
Thanks for keeping us up on Williamson, btw. DVR'd her town hall last night. Looking forward to giving it a watch!
Also, there literally is no "appropriate" avenue to talk about things where you either A) get engagement and B) exist in the first place on a discussion forum.Who cares? The conversation will be over soon enough when something else of note happens related to the primary that people want to talk about more.
Aren't you lovely.Yup. It's almost like it's organized. Like unwanted solicitors with their foot in the door.
Marianne's Town Hall was exciting. Her answers to reparations, Israel-Palestine, and how she would debate Trump were great.
She's so charismatic and genuine.
It really gave her a boost in mentions on twitter. Hopefully that translates to donations and a showing in the better polls.
There's an OT for socialism in the hangouts, seems like the best place to discuss it for anyone interested.Who cares? The conversation will be over soon enough when something else of note happens related to the primary that people want to talk about more.
lol yes it's all a big conspiracy theory to turn this thread into a socialism OT. It couldn't possible be that it's a natural conversation to come from Pelosi saying socialism isn't the future of the party in a thread about the presidential candidates who will help shape the future of the party.Yup. It's almost like it's organized. Like unwanted solicitors with their foot in the door.
That's great to hear. Do you think she'll make the debates? I kicked her a few bucks a while back but it looks like it's been an uphill battle to hit 65k. Maybe her polling will tick up post town hall?Yup. It's almost like it's organized. Like unwanted solicitors with their foot in the door.
Marianne's Town Hall was exciting. Her answers to reparations, Israel-Palestine, and how she would debate Trump were great.
She's so charismatic and genuine.
It really gave her a boost in mentions on twitter. Hopefully that translates to donations and a showing in the better polls.
I do find weirder lovely. One of my fave posters in the thread :)
It has become much more of a hard science in the past few decades as the information age has progressed. And that change has blown up a lot of libertarian ideas about how the world's economies function alongside the socialist ones.
We aren't talking about theory here except on the broadest level, nobody goes into an OT that isn't firmly of the belief of said thing which is why they are not conducive to discussion at all, and again, there is a self described socialist running for President and the Centre wing of the Democratic party is constantly mentioning Socialism.There's an OT for socialism in the hangouts, seems like the best place to discuss it for anyone interested.
"Why won't they just use their hangouts OT as a safe space in the same way we use our poliera thread?"
Now this gave me a good chuckle.Nobody is stopping you from posting another one of Marianne's tweets for everyone to ignore if you want to stay on topic.
We aren't talking about theory here except on the broadest level, nobody goes into an OT that isn't firmly of the belief of said thing which is why they are not conducive to discussion at all, and again, there is a self described socialist running for President and the Centre wing of the Democratic party is constantly mentioning Socialism.
If you don't like it, don't read it, stop constantly complaining about discussion happening in a discussion forum that you can easily ignore instead of creating a "derailment" of it yourself.
But no, a mod will be here shortly to tell us "fuck off to filthy commie land filthy commies" and you'll get your wish regardless and can go back to talking about twitter polls again.
I don't really distinguish between "hard" and "soft" like this anymore. However, I will say that as much as mainstream economists want to appear as "hard" as possible and ground their field in data, it doesn't change the inhererent nature of economics being the study of how humans behave and interact. Mathematical rigor in theory does not translate directly to objective outcomes in practice, because economic study tends to inform policy and policy is ultimately inter-human relations and the governance thereof.I think this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen you say. Economics is a social science, and subsequently a soft science, and arguing otherwise makes you look incredibly ignorant. Some of you people really are too emotionally invested tribalism if you can make statements like that without a hint of jest.
I'm holding out hope that the combination of the town hall, her book and her celebrity friends now starting to show support will bring it over the threshold for donations.That's great to hear. Do you think she'll make the debates? I kicked her a few bucks a while back but it looks like it's been an uphill battle to hit 65k. Maybe her polling will tick up post town hall?
I do find weirder lovely. One of my fave posters in the thread :)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for regulation. It's just that I think regulation is kind of like treating cancer by surgerically removing tumors. It's a necessary part of long-term treatment, but it's not a cure.
Yup. It's almost like it's organized. Like unwanted solicitors with their foot in the door.
Yup. It's almost like it's organized. Like unwanted solicitors with their foot in the door.
Marianne's Town Hall was exciting. Her answers to reparations, Israel-Palestine, and how she would debate Trump were great.
She's so charismatic and genuine.
It really gave her a boost in mentions on twitter. Hopefully that translates to donations and a showing in the better polls.
There are a lot of decent people. But you're always going to have rapists, serial killers, con artists, xenophobes, etc. and how you deal with their inevitable existence as they try to manipulate the system to their advantage is critical, because those are the people much more likely to actively seek power, wealth, status, etc. relative to everyone else. Trump is unfortunately a perfect example of this.So then we should all just die.
Seriously, if human beings are so irreparably doomed to slaughter each other and that there is no betterment of society beyond the bounds of making a profit, if the eternal system is that it is designed for some people to ALWAYS be on the bottom rung with nothing but the sweet embrace of finality and death to look forward too. Then what are we even doing.
You've a profoundly depressing and nihilistic view of humanity.
You think this makes me sound ignorant because you're ignorant on what I'm talking about. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-08-02/how-economics-went-from-philosophy-to-scienceI think this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen you say. Economics is a social science, and subsequently a soft science, and arguing otherwise makes you look incredibly ignorant. Some of you people really are too emotionally invested tribalism if you can make statements like that without a hint of jest.
This hasn't really shown to be true, other than the media being in love with Pete and focusing all their attention on him.
Anecdotally :PThis hasn't really shown to be true, other than the media being in love with Pete and focusing all their attention on him.
I totally forgot about the 20 candidate limit. I'm still baffled about Hickenlooper.I'm holding out hope that the combination of the town hall, her book and her celebrity friends now starting to show support will bring it over the threshold for donations.
Then there is overcoming the next hurdle and the number of Dems in the race now since the stage is limited to 20. Would really like to see her included in those early state polls(the ones that count) and making a showing in those.
Even if she doesn't make the debate stage she might still stay in the race.
Can a day go by without the 2020 primary thread turning into a socialism thread? One day we may find out!