• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,857
I'm not a Bernie fan, but I think his branding is fine, given that he's been operating this way for decades and the party at large seems to be fine with him. Bernie can still be a team player (see his work challenging various provisions in the Republican health care bill a while back with the Parliamentarian).

And given that we have politicians like AOC and Rashida Tlaib, both DSA members who also are part of the Democratic Party, I'm not worried that Bernie's independent affiliation is going to influence others to leave the party either. So, like pigeon, I don't think this particular issue is really worth worrying about.
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,014
Did you miss the contempt he's had for the Democrats through his career? This isn't some secret nobody knows about. It was all over the '16 primaries once he figured out he was going to lose.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181





This is not a man who cares that deeply about the Democratic party or its members.



I bought that up due to responses to my inquiries simply being summed up policy agreement. I'm far from the only person in the Democratic party who was bugged by this, this is not just about me and you this is about millions of people and their reactions to why they vote for politicians they like. It's more complicated than "I like X policy decisions," and that's all they care about.

Why wouldn't I be angry at Bernie for those mistakes? I take sexually harassment and race relations very seasons, and I should hope any candidate running for the Democratic nomination thinks the same. I'm not discussing why his voting bloc is ok with him not being a Democrat, that's a plus in their mind. I was talking about everyone else, and not everyone agrees with that.



There's a wide spectrum of reasons the Dems can do those things and they're not all think "he's great." It's disappointing you're not engaging on the context for how he got these concessions, that any other response is something incomprehensible to believe, or that many people in the party might be angry with him over it.



Maybe? You're framing the Democratic insiders as a group that is of one mind on all things, rather than a group of individuals who might have a bone to pick with Bernie with his behaviour. This ignores the negative context for how he got those seats. It's not like Dems haven't had a problem with him being independent before or since.



Our conversation is built on a disagreement not solely on part identification but loyalty, and Bernie has none for the party.



The two issues are intertwined, as having a strong Democratic party and having entrenched alliances within congress can help politicians with legislation that impacts their constituents.

Madison's long dead, he wouldn't think anything about this. Politics has evolved a lot from their time, as they couldn't predict the future and they're not perfect.



I'm not necessarily disagreeing but that whole thing falls apart without loyalty holding the Democrats part together, both from the insiders and the voting blocs. This is not the sort of fault like I was criticising Bernie for, it's the loyalty aspect. Part of that is his party identification, another is he's not a team player. If all that mattered in politics is policy goals the Democratic party would be less fractured among itself, this ignores how politicians and staff in the party are people. People who have flaws, make mistakes, sometimes they don't get along with each other - leaders who can bind that into a coalition are a powerful force but without loyalty to each other or the party it breaks. This the type of trait which is desirable among various voting blocs of Democrats in their leaders for president, or they'll find themselves with a bad relationship with their allies in congress, like Trump has been.



Bernie only became popular with Democrats after he ran in the Democratic primaries, if that hadn't occurred he'd have remained an obscure Independent politician from Vermont. I would disagree with that argument. Having few allies and not having money on hand are choices he made himself, it's not Hillary's fault he didn't come to the primary on an equal footing.

The context isn't helping him. Bernie's at the top of the campaign pyramid and it was his job to be up to date with how his staff and volunteers were doing, to some extent. Being a leader is a tremendous responsibility and that responsibility includes making sure all his staff feel safe and inclusive. Giving the job to upper management than forgetting about it entirely is bad leadership, no matter how busy he was. Being POTUS is x1000 busier, if he can't properly conduct his business on a simple campaign why should he be the most powerful man on the planet?



It's not mutually exclusive. Dems have certain values, and she is a bad Democrats for the values you laid out.
Its his responsibility but lets be realistic. Sanders chose to work outside the broken campaign finance system and there were a lot of institutional barriers. Its easy to say he should have done better, but these standards would discourage those without institutional backing from running. Why not just weigh the mistakes against his reforms instead of going harrasement happened its his fault hes unviable, when his competition could easily be in the same position.
 

Exellus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,348
U7BxyUM.jpg
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
after living through the 2008 cycle in real time (and after Michael Tracey's dumb ass already started it) I'm personally looking forward to the next 12+ months of "is Kamala Harris really black?" takes
 
OP
OP
pigeon

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Its his responsibility but lets be realistic. Sanders chose to work outside the broken campaign finance system and there were a lot of institutional barriers. Its easy to say he should have done better, but these standards would discourage those without institutional backing from running. Why not just weigh the mistakes against his reforms instead of going harrasement happened its his fault hes unviable, when his competition could easily be in the same position.

"Yes, Bernie was responsible for sexual harassment, but if you actually held him responsible for it it would just strengthen the party system" is certainly a take.
 

Human

Member
Oct 25, 2017
754
Any place tracking all the candidates campaign stops? I should have plenty of opportunities in the next year to meet most of them, since I live in NH, but it would be easier than following them all on Twitter or getting emailed constantly.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Just rolling by to shitpost (based on https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/politics/2020-presidential-candidates.html):

dream ticket: harris / beto
more realistic ticket: brown / beto
more realistic ticket: brown / harris
maybe ticket: beto / gillibrand
maybe ticket: brown gillibrand

I just want to win, though. That's why my dream ticket should and won't be a thing in 2020.


Hindsight is 2020. Run that slogan y'all :p
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
more realistic ticket: brown / beto

Sherrod Brown on criminalization of pro-Palestinian speech and boycotting just a few days ago: "I strongly support Israel and measures to combat BDS efforts directed against Israel. I commend Senators Cardin and Portman on this new version of their anti-BDS legislation, which signals progress in their efforts to ensure strong enforcement and clarify the activities covered by the bill. I'll continue to work with my colleagues to move this legislation forward."
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Sherrod Brown on criminalization of pro-Palestinian speech and boycotting just a few days ago: "I strongly support Israel and measures to combat BDS efforts directed against Israel. I commend Senators Cardin and Portman on this new version of their anti-BDS legislation, which signals progress in their efforts to ensure strong enforcement and clarify the activities covered by the bill. I'll continue to work with my colleagues to move this legislation forward."
Thnk u next
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA

  • "stop acting like young people" ✔️
  • "non-stupid party" ✔️
  • "economic anxiety" ✔️
  • "be smart" ✔️
  • "not gonna be mean" ✔️

I'm late to this but

This fucking idiot has no idea what makes the new candidates appealing. They're passionate, relatable, are a booming voice for people who are actually struggling are are unapologetic about their views that often make people uncomfortable. Instead of robotic centrists or left leading folks who hardly take a strong position either way. We have a million of those, thanks. "Acting like young people".. no, acting like "people", is what got them there.

Anybody who uses the term "economic anxiety" seriously should be fucking slapped.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Sherrod Brown on criminalization of pro-Palestinian speech and boycotting just a few days ago: "I strongly support Israel and measures to combat BDS efforts directed against Israel. I commend Senators Cardin and Portman on this new version of their anti-BDS legislation, which signals progress in their efforts to ensure strong enforcement and clarify the activities covered by the bill. I'll continue to work with my colleagues to move this legislation forward."

Will that lose Brown any voters in the midwest, though?

I don't really understand, personally, why the entire nation seems to be so anti-Palestinian. It's one of those things I never understood.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
Sherrod Brown on criminalization of pro-Palestinian speech and boycotting just a few days ago: "I strongly support Israel and measures to combat BDS efforts directed against Israel. I commend Senators Cardin and Portman on this new version of their anti-BDS legislation, which signals progress in their efforts to ensure strong enforcement and clarify the activities covered by the bill. I'll continue to work with my colleagues to move this legislation forward."
Man, if his trade policy positions didn't already cancel him with me, this would've done it all over again

Will that lose Brown any voters in the midwest, though?
Do I count as a lost voter if I wasn't voting for him for a different reason already?
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Will that lose Brown any voters in the midwest, though?

I don't really understand, personally, why the entire nation seems to be so anti-Palestinian. It's one of those things I never understood.

Intimidation of those who speak out for Palestinians is a part of it.

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/22/israel-boycott-canary-mission-blacklist/

"[American] targets of Canary Mission have been denied entry to Palestine, fired from jobs, interrogated by employers and university administrators, and targeted with death threats and racial, homophobic misogynist harassment from Canary Mission followers," said Liz Jackson, a founding staff attorney for Palestine Legal, a group that has interviewed over 200 people targeted by Canary Mission. "We know one person who was denied a bank account. People have reported their relationships with parents and business relationships being damaged. And that doesn't begin to describe the self-censorship and psychological warfare effects."

CANARY MISSION PERFECTLY articulated its vision and strategy in its April 2015 debut video. The two-minute clip features images of Jews with yellow stars on their clothes followed by images of hijab-clad women waving Palestinian flags. The video's female narrator closes by saying, "It is your duty to ensure that today's radicals are not tomorrow's employees."
Earlier this year, The Forward uncovered two sources of funding for the website. The Helen Diller Family Foundation, a charity controlled by the Jewish Community Federation of San Francisco, gave the website $100,000 in late 2016 or early 2017, while the Jewish Community Foundation of Los Angeles, between November 2016 and September 2017, sent $250,000 to an Israeli nonprofit thought to operate the website. (Both charities said they would no longer be funding the blacklist.) The Forward also reported that the Israeli nonprofit linked to the site, Megamot Shalom, is run by former employees of Aish HaTorah, a right-wing Orthodox Jewish organization. (Requests for comment sent to Jonathan Bash, an ex-Aish HaTorah employee who The Forward identified as the operator of the website, and Canary Mission were not returned.)

A clip from Al Jazeera's undercover investigation into the Israel lobby in the United States showed a pro-Israel advocate pointing to another funder of Canary Mission: Adam Milstein, an Israeli-American real estate magnate who funds an alphabet soup of pro-Israel organizations. No hard proof has emerged that Milstein is in fact a funder, though Milstein, who denied he gave the website cash, has praised the blacklist.
In two of the interviews, including Aburas's, the FBI referenced Canary Mission, an anonymously run, right-wing website that compiles dossiers on activists who organize for Palestinian human rights on U.S. college campuses, claiming — without evidence — that the students have ties to terrorism in an effort to make them unemployable.

Advocates for Palestinian human rights have in recent years triggered a national conversation about the seemingly unconditional U.S. military and financial support for the Israeli government. The work of these advocates has drawn increasingly hostile tactics from far-right groups who wish to silence them, and the FBI interviews underscore the power of those groups — whose false claims are now apparently informing government action.

Civil liberties advocates are alarmed by the interviews, which they say intimidate political organizers, chill constitutionally protected speech, and are just the latest manifestation of a 50-year history of U.S. government scrutiny of pro-Palestine activists. That the FBI is relying on information from the likes of Canary Mission creates even more cause for concern, because it signals that federal law enforcement is relying on unvetted blacklists designed to shut down criticism of Israel and smear students voicing pro-Palestinian political opinions.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,045
I'm late to this but

This fucking idiot has no idea what makes the new candidates appealing. They're passionate, relatable, are a booming voice for people who are actually struggling are are unapologetic about their views that often make people uncomfortable. Instead of robotic centrists or left leading folks who hardly take a strong position either way. We have a million of those, thanks. "Acting like young people".. no, acting like "people", is what got them there.

Anybody who uses the term "economic anxiety" seriously should be fucking slapped.

Aaron Sorkin has a deep disdain for anyone who doesn't act and sound like a character written by Aaron Sorkin.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Thank God we're getting rid of Beto now. Get pro-gas guzzlers and anti-UHC gone now.

For me it's rough. I could conceivably vote with good conscience for Harris, Bernie, or Warren. Thing is all three have issues I could see being major stumbling blocks. Harris with her record as a lawyer, Bernie with his apparent age (even though he's infinitely less senile than Trump) and his lack of education on modern social issues, and Warren being unfairly but objectively made a laughingstock by the right to nonvoters who otherwise potentially could be voters.

I don't really think any of the other potential nominees would be any better than a more moderate Republican in practice. Especially Biden. People seem to forget some of his questionable policy decisions just because he was on Obama's ticket. Brown can fuck off with his anti-Palestine shite too.

Like I'd still vote for them vs Trump but God I'd feel like a shitty person.

Edit: Ah yeah, fuck Aaron Sorkin and the West Wing.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Will that lose Brown any voters in the midwest, though?

I don't really understand, personally, why the entire nation seems to be so anti-Palestinian. It's one of those things I never understood.
Supporting Israel's existence and having an issue specifically with BDS does not make one anti-Palestine. (This bill is still super shitty and dumb though and it's yet another reason to not vote for Brown.)

The politics were a lot different 30-40 years ago when "will Israel continue to exist despite most of the other countries in the region wishing it wouldn't" was more of an actual open question with stuff like the Iranian revolution.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I'm not sure where you're getting the "pro-gas guzzlers" line from unless it's the Sirota garbage. The "anti-UHC" part is a straight up lie.
He took money from members of the fossil fuel industry without once saying that they'd NOT influence his vote even after being called out on it, and as displayed posts earlier said a Canadian thought American healthcare was better, which is of course a veiled attack on the idea we should have UHC instead of "Accessible Health Care" or whatever bullshit moderate dems want to peddle as being anywhere equivalent to all Americans having free at-time-of-service, paid-by-taxes, healthcare. Or, single payer, in short. Dual system is unacceptable, period, unless privatized insurance is solely for purely cosmetic stuff for cis people without body dysmorphia. And even THAT is a big compromise.

I'm sorry, but we cannot afford to be anything but EXTREMELY hardline on global climate change. That he addressed no concerns says everything to me. Until he re-commits himself to the cause, I refuse to consider him a viable candidate in the primaries.

As I said, I'll vote for him if he somehow becomes the nominee, but I will feel like a horrible person as I do so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.