2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

[Kirblar]

very cool stuff

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Why would you be linking to Walter "The Liberal Case for Trump" Bragman instead of to the actual source?

Sure. Have the risk assessment. If the candidate has shown they are 80 and unhealthy, don't vote for them.There is a difference between assessment, and what's going on here. There are lines being drawn at age, with it being the main pillar.

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Being 80 and healthy doesn't preclude a rapid decline in the near future. When things go bad at that age, they often go bad fast. The risk assesment/score to myself and others IS their age.

His support of trans people absolutely says otherwise. I refuse to believe that the probably most pro-LGBT senator doesnt give a shit about social issues.

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Let's not go overboard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Baldwin

 

[BoboBrazil]

 

[Kitsunelaine]

His support of trans people absolutely says otherwise.

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Ha, bullshit, I'm a trans person and I continually feel like Bernie's spitting on me with his constant appeals to anti-progressive dogwhistles like "identity politics" and boiling everything down to a class issue

I don't fucking trust a crusty old white man to give a shit about my issues especially when he's had a history of spitting in their face. He's only ever seemed like a "get off of my lawn" sort to me.

And I'm routinely disappointed that people are throwing away the lessons they learned from every other crusty old white man in politics when it comes to this guy.

 

[lmcfigs]

She's still thinking on it because she really wants to be Governor. However, she was actively pissed off at getting floated by Biden's team publicly when she never spoke to them. (and I presume, probably doesn't want the gig.)

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I'm still amazed at how is insane that was. like he couldn't be bothered to just ask her and maybe she says no and he moves on to the next person???

 

[Haubergeon]

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Has Beto ever addressed whether he would support abolishing ICE?

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

If he picks Harris I be pretty upset but I'd still vote for him. My voting for a D is a foregone conclusion and if Biden doesn't somehow force people to commit to VPs like the Abram's gambit looked to, then we'll just have to wait and see.

And a Bernie/Harris ticket should make everyone happy as many of you are fine with Harris.

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I was thinking Tulsi.

Because people want bernie for president because they think his policies are best for the country? If he can't finish the job, then his VP will. The only people calling it dire are anti-bernie people

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He dies in office from old age, or is sidelined due to emotional or mental problems you're not getting President Bernie. You don't think your candidate doing either of these isn't dire? And if he picks Vice President Tulsi everything will be ok?

Are their "troubles" equal to you? Can you lay out exactly what bernie's race troubles are and why you feel they are comparable to biden's? Do you find someone like harris's race "troubles" disqualifying?

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This thread has gone over Bernie's race problems, and recently. Don't act like his record is clean on this issue.

I didn't say anything about disqualifying.

I mean, yes, he's an alpha chad, but I swear I'm not just crushing on his bod.

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This is an interesting reaction concerning how you view Bernie as a candidate. Rather than accept that you're a person who likes Bernie for more than his policies, which is a bad thing for whatever reason, you're going to make a bad joke. Do you think all Bernie followers are Vulcans from Star Trek lol

I'm still amazed at how is insane that was. like he couldn't be bothered to just ask her and maybe she says no and he moves on to the next person???

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Technically she left that door open, it wasn't a firm no.

 

[Unknown Unknown]

 

[Dream Machine]

no he's shat over every progressive cause by showing his true colors and blaming "identity politics" on the cause of democratic loss



i don't see any reason to believe Bernie legitimately gives a shit about modern social issues, and I see mountains of evidence suggesting that he couldn't care less



then you're being inconsistent, because he's constantly and consistently displayed everything we criticize them for but i guess if you only care about economic policy and not social issues it's fine or something

unfortunately for you, that's not the kind of person I want to be

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Economic and social issues are inextricably linked. Socially progressive but financially conservative isn't real.

People think that bernie's policies are the best way to address many social issues at their source. I don't want to be the kind of person who thinks status quo economics can remain and social issues can be meaningfully addressed.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

It isn't ageism to want youth or a new generational face/change to the Democratic party. Age is a real concern when it comes to a presidential candidate. Dying in office is always a concern, among other things.

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Saying "this person can't do *thing* because of their age" is textbook ageism. I don't even know why this is a debate?

https://www.who.int/ageing/features/faq-ageism/en/

Ageism is the stereotyping and discrimination against individuals or groups on the basis of their age; ageism can take many forms, including prejudicial attitudes, discriminatory practices, or institutional policies and practices that perpetuate stereotypical beliefs.

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Again, really disappointing that this has been allowed for so long, and even cheered on.

Seriously, what if he does die in the middle of his time in office? What then?

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There's a reason why the office of Vice President is a thing. If Bernie Sanders wins the nomination then who he chooses for VP is critical.

 

[lmcfigs]

Has Beto ever addressed whether he would support abolishing ICE?

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honestly that's a losing issue for dems. he probably shouldn't. like its not even a popular slogan

 

[Kirblar]

I'm still amazed at how is insane that was. like he couldn't be bothered to just ask her and maybe she says no and he moves on to the next person???

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He team did it to Beto too IIRC. That reports months back made it sound like a number of people internally on his team don't want him to run and the leaks we're getting are from people explicitly trying to get him to sit out.

honestly that's a losing issue for dems. he probably shouldn't. like its not even a popular slogan

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Yeah the slogan pretty much died out and it's back to a general "please just fix this shit".

 

[medinaria]

I was pointing out how you were turning a non-absolute statement into an absolute in order to mock it, something that happens an incredible ammount when Bernie fans are reaching

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lol

feel free to tell me how "No Bernie follower is a fan strictly based on his policies, that's not how people work." isn't an absolute statement. one that is, for the record, absolutely wrong - I've been open in this thread (and other threads) for months now that I support the left-most candidate in the primary (within my own standards for viability - I'm not supporting Vermin Supreme even if I might want to) because they are the left-most candidate in the primary, and will move my support accordingly.

ps: things get mocked sometimes not because we can't handle their truths, but because they're self-evidently dumb and wrong and serve more as a projection of their author's bias than any real insight into the people they judge

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

 

[Kitsunelaine]

feel free to tell me how "No Bernie follower is a fan strictly based on his policies, that's not how people work." isn't an absolute statement

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do you know what the word "strictly" means

 

[BoboBrazil]

Has Beto ever addressed whether he would support abolishing ICE?

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[danm999]

He team did it to Beto too IIRC. That reports months back made it sound like a number of people internally on his team don't want him to run and the leaks we're getting are from people explicitly trying to get him to sit out.

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lmao

With friends like these

 

[lmcfigs]

He team did it to Beto too IIRC. That reports months back made it sound like a number of people internally on his team don't want him to run and the leaks we're getting are from people explicitly trying to get him to sit out.

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I remember that as well. I don't think this was leaked to hurt him though. or if it was, it actually helped him a lot this time.... until Abrams responded.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

lol

feel free to tell me how "No Bernie follower is a fan strictly based on his policies, that's not how people work." isn't an absolute statement. one that is, for the record, absolutely wrong - I've been open in this thread (and other threads) for months now that I support the left-most candidate in the primary (within my own standards for viability - I'm not supporting Vermin Supreme even if I might want to) because they are the left-most candidate in the primary, and will move my support accordingly.

ps: things get mocked sometimes not because we can't handle their truths, but because they're self-evidently dumb and wrong and serve more as a projection of their author's bias than any real insight into the people they judge

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So you have no opinion or knowledge about who Bernie is as a person which isn't appealing to you? I don't buy it.

 

[Madison]

Ha, bullshit, I'm a trans person and I continually feel like Bernie's spitting on me with his constant appeals to anti-progressive dogwhistles like "identity politics" and boiling everything down to a class issue

I don't fucking trust a crusty old white man to give a shit about my issues especially when he's had a history of spitting in their face. He's only ever seemed like a "get off of my lawn" sort to me.

And I'm routinely disappointed that people are throwing away the lessons they learned from every other crusty old white man in politics when it comes to this guy.

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I call bullshit that Bernie is suddenly spitting on LGBT people just because of, at worst, mixed comments on diversity. You talk about dogwhistles like he appealed to "identity politics" every week when I can barely find times where he has spoken against that concept. Of course, correct me if Im wrong about the amount of times hes spoken against diversity and identity politics.

Even then, a couple of vague comments dont take from his extensive past defending gay and trans people.

Do you think that this was about "getting off my lawn"?

 

[Kitsunelaine]

I call bullshit that Bernie is suddenly spitting on LGBT people just because of, at worst, mixed comments on diversity. You talk about dogwhistles like he appealed to "identity politics" every week when I can barely find times where he has spoken against that concept. Even then, a couple of vague comments dont take from his past defending gay and trans people.

Do you think that this was about "getting off my lawn"?

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I do not trust him to represent my issues when he is routinely interested in making everything solely about economics. That, combined with his history of throwing minorities under the bus to the point of blaming us for the loss of the 2016 election indirectly, makes me very much not give a shit about any platitudes he might say.

Fuck that and fuck anyone who thinks should be our sole method of tackling social poltiics.

 

[Haubergeon]

Anyone who professes in the importance of intersectionality but dismisses economic solutions to racial/gender inequalities, doesn't actually understand what intersectionality means.

 

[samoyed]

I was thinking Tulsi.

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Hypotheticals are fun but they are just hypotheticals.

I'd still vote Bernie/Gabbard over Trump/Pence.

If anything him announcing ahead of time will get people to cancel him before the general and we can avoid a Bernie/Gabbard ticket and get Beto/Harris or something, so you should want this.

 

[Dream Machine]

He dies in office from old age, or is sidelined due to emotional or mental problems you're not getting President Bernie. You don't think your candidate doing either of these isn't dire? And if he picks Vice President Tulsi everything will be ok?



This thread has gone over Bernie's race problems, and recently. Don't act like his record is clean on this issue.

I didn't say anything about disqualifying.



This is an interesting reaction concerning how you view Bernie as a candidate. Rather than accept that you're a person who likes Bernie for more than his policies, which is a bad thing for whatever reason, you're going to make a bad joke. Do you think all Bernie followers are Vulcans from Star Trek lol

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If he picks a shitty VP, then I won't be happy, just like with any other candidate?


I'm not the one acting here. I'm not saying his record is clean, I'm asking you if his and Biden's are equal to you, and how they compare to harris's history as a prosecutor enacting biden's policies. Because you threw out "they both have race troubles" as if they were both equal on the matter.


The main reason people follow bernie is because of his policies. The percentage of superficiality of the choice is quite low for most of his support. This is not the same for all of the candidates' supporters. It's bad to elect a politician for mostly superficial reasons (that's the "some reason" you're baffled by) as opposed to their policies and political history. You disagree?

 

[Deleted member 4346]

I do not trust him to represent my issues when he is routinely interested in making everything solely about economics.

Fuck that and fuck anyone who thinks that's the best way to tackle social poltiics.

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But also, fuck anyone who thinks that social issues exist in a vacuum, and that there aren't serious economic drivers for race and gender imbalances.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Anyone who professes in the importance of intersectionality but dismisses economic solutions to racial/gender inequalities, doesn't actually understand what intersectionality means.

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And anybody with a sole focus on economic issues as a response to overwhelming prejudice and bigotry when it comes to modern minority issues doesn't actually give a shit about prejudice and bigotry.

Anybody who trusts a crusty old white man to faithfully represent or even care about modern minority issues hasn't learned anything about politics.

 

[lmcfigs]

Find you a candidate that can do both

 

[BringBackSonics]

Beto is trying to hit 1 million in donations since his rally yesterday. This should update every 5-15 minutes or so with the latest numbers.

If you feel like donating y'all can here https://secure.actblue.com/donate/beto-email-20190331

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Thanks for my reminder, just put my donation in.

 

[Unknown Unknown]

I liked how Pete mentioned transgender youth on Bill Maher, too. Pete only had a few minutes to bring up certain issues, as Maher pointed out, and that he chose to represent for them over talking about other issues with more direct effect on the lives of more people speaks well of him and what he considers important to stand up for in the greater moral picture.
And that support seems genuine and based upon his personal understanding and not contrived by political operatives from focus groups to tell a candidate what to say.

 

[Madison]

That, combined with his history of throwing minorities under the bus to the point of blaming us for the loss of the 2016 election indirectly, makes me very much not give a shit about any platitudes he might say.

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FIrst of all, this is a big claim and I have no idea what makes you say something like this, especially when you reply without any sources to corroborate your claims.

Second, Is voting against DOMA a platitude? Or voting in favor of gay adoptions? Or making it ilegal in Vermont to discriminate against trans workers since 2007? How about voting in favor of multiple Student Non-Discrimination Acts to specifically protect people with different gender identities?

Is this all a mirage I imagined?

 

[Kirblar]

Anyone who professes in the importance of intersectionality but dismisses economic solutions to racial/gender inequalities, doesn't actually understand what intersectionality means.

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The fundamental problem is that racism is the biggest thing blocking economic solutions. Not vice versa. Which is why trading those WWC seats from 06/08 to the seats we picked up in 2018 has resulted in a far more liberal caucus on both social issues AND economics.

This shift is also why both Hillary's 2008 bid and Bernie's 2016 bid for the nomination failed- the coalition they were attempting to use simply doesn't work anymore with the way politics have realigned in the past 50 years.

 

[SweetNicole]

People die at all ages due to natural causes. It's definitely a higher chance the older you get, but the fact is, some people are healthier at 80, than others are at 40. That post was clearly ageist. It disregarded the reasons that someone may like Bernie, and put the reasoning that they shouldn't, purely on age. That is ageism.

The fact is, Bernie can be healthier than all the other candidates on stage. It's unlikely. But why does that give us the moral permission to disregard him, purely based on that? Why can't someone just like Bernie more, and not throw it all away due to age?

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I think anyone is free to like who they want to like. If you like Bernie more, that's your prerogative. I know I voted for him in the 2016 primary, and I can't fault anyone who votes for him this time around too. I view age as an assessment of elect-ability and risk. There is nothing wrong with being uncomfortable or comfortable voting for old candidates who are likely to die in office or may face challenges in a general election on account of their age. There is nothing wrong with preferring or not preferring candidates who might represent the youth and diversity in America and the Democratic Party better.

I think it is important to consider how you vote in elections. Do you vote based on whoever has the best policy? Do you vote based on whoever has the best charisma? Do you vote based on whoever represents diversity and change? Other factors? Some combination of those? There's a lot of ways to consider and choose what makes a candidate worth voting to you, and a candidate's age can and does often factor into how you make that decision, whether that happens implicitly or explicitly. It is an intensely personal choice, and there's a lot of things that factor into it.

 

[lmcfigs]

I liked how Pete mentioned transgender youth on Bill Maher, too. Pete only had a few minutes to bring up certain issues, as Maher pointed out, and that he chose to represent for them over talking about other issues with more direct effect on the lives of more people speaks well of him and what he considers important to stand up for in the greater moral picture.
And that support seems genuine and based upon his personal understanding and not contrived by political operatives from focus groups to tell a candidate what to say.

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I also liked that he was representing the religious left. it's a real shame that conservatives have claimed a monopoly on being "properly christian". he's a really good guy.

 

[medinaria]

do you know what the word "strictly" means

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no, I can't read, I sound out the letters and make my best guess

So you have no opinion or knowledge about who Bernie is as a person which isn't appealing to you? I don't buy it.

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to use the framework established by noted philosopher (read: not a philosopher) peter rosas, I don't view politicians as politicians. I view them as functions.

politicians exist to be the vector by which policies are enacted. I do not care how old they are, what they look like, what they do in their spare time, who they are friends with, who they aren't friends with - none of that matters to me. who bernie sanders is as a person is literally irrelevant to my support of him. I don't care that he marched for civil rights, I don't care that he looks like a homeless man, I don't care that he has avian magnetism, I don't care about his accent or his family or his ability to shoot a basketball. I care about ending poverty, getting everyone the health care they need, protecting the environment, and not murdering brown children around the world. that's it. if there is a candidate more equipped to do those things, then I support them instead.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

I think anyone is free to like who they want to like. If you like Bernie more, that's your prerogative. I know I voted for him in the 2016 primary, and I can't fault anyone who votes for him this time around too. I view age as an assessment of elect-ability and risk. There is nothing wrong with being uncomfortable or comfortable voting for old candidates who are likely to die in office or may face challenges in a general election on account of their age. There is nothing wrong with preferring or not preferring candidates who might represent the youth and diversity in America and the Democratic Party better.

I think it is important to consider how you vote in elections. Do you vote based on whoever has the best policy? Do you vote based on whoever has the best charisma? Do you vote based on whoever represents diversity and change? Other factors? Some combination of those? There's a lot of ways to consider and choose what makes a candidate worth voting to you, and a candidate's age can and does often factor into how you make that decision, whether that happens implicitly or explicitly. It is an intensely personal choice, and there's a lot of things that factor into it.

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surely you can see how this post and the one you cosigned with the rock gif are at odds with each other

 

[Kitsunelaine]

FIrst of all, this is a big claim and I have no idea what makes you say something like this, especially when you reply without any sources to corroborate your claims.

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https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-sanders-identity-politics-class-race-debate

"oh no the poor working class, the most important people. anyway identity politics is the real problem" - Definitely An Ally, We Swear

The fundamental problem is that racism is the biggest thing blocking economic solutions. Not vice versa. Which is why trading those WWC seats from 06/08 to the seats we picked up in 2018 has resulted in a far more liberal caucus on both social issues AND economics.

This shift is also why both Hillary's 2008 bid and Bernie's 2016 bid for the nomination failed- the coalition they were attempting to use simply doesn't work anymore with the way politics have realigned in the past 50 years.

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fucking amen

no, I can't read, I sound out the letters and make my best guess

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makes sense, because the point the user was making wasn't an absolute through use of that word, since it was about how everyone's on a scale between policies and everything else, and while some might be higher on policy than others, or believe they are, nobody is absolutely just policy or everything else and it's a grey mess because that's how humans work

 

[Nocturnal]

Anybody who trusts a crusty old white man to faithfully represent or even care about modern minority issues hasn't learned anything about politics.

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That crusty old white dude was standing up for minorities before majority of people posting on this forum were even born. How many people here can say that just because of the religion/culture they were born into half of their family was murdered? Minority struggle is real but to belittle a candidate because of your own personal opinion just shows your true colors. You don't want to pain anything positive about a specific candidate just because of your own personal biases against him.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

That crusty old white dude was standing up for minorities before majority of people posting on this forum were even born

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He was standing up for the social politics of his day, when he was young. We've moved way past that now and he's yet to get on board with many things and still thinks """working class""" people should be his sole focus. I guess you missed the "modern minority issues" part of my post

Minority struggle is real but to belittle a candidate because of your own personal opinion just shows your true colors

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how evil of me, to *checks notes* care about issues that affect me as a minority

...wait

 

[Unknown Unknown]

Pete's releasing his fundraising numbers tomorrow

 

[Madison]

"oh no the poor working class, the most important people. anyway identity politics is the real problem" - Definitely An Ally, We Swear

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While I think that his statements could have been a lot better, I dont get "Identity politics are why Trump won". I disagree that he was trying to dogwhistle
by saying "its diversity"s fault" or something like that, that seems like a very cynical and unrealistic interpretation.

"The working class of this country is being decimated — that's why Donald Trump won."

This is his statement directly. Sure says a lot that you didnt quote him directly. It also says a lot that your big source is statements from over two years ago not related to any votes or moments in congress.

Also, you ignored the votes I linked. Are they not a sign that Bernie is significantly above most "allies"? Do you want videos of him talking in favor of diversity? I also have a bunch of those!

He was standing up for the social politics of his day, when he was young.

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He
Keeps
Voting
For
Them

 

[Kitsunelaine]

While I think that his statements could have been a lot better, I dont get "Identity politics are why Trump won". I disagree that he was trying to dogwhistle
by saying "its diversity"s fault" or something like that, that seems like a very cynical and unrealistic interpretation.

"The working class of this country is being decimated — that's why Donald Trump won."

This is his statement directly.

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And it is a dogwhistle.

Next.

 

[Haubergeon]

What exactly is the workable solution for "racists exist"? Wait for them to all die? How can you possibly address issues of racial and gender inequality purely through "social policy" means? You can't make being a bigot illegal in any functional way, and our coasts are likely to be underwater before they all decide to have an epiphany. Like, I just don't get what the actual proposed solutions here are without an economic element. I just keep flashing back to Hillary saying "Would breaking up the big banks solve racism or sexism?!" and being reminded of what we can't do, but never what we actually can do.

He was standing up for the social politics of his day, when he was young. We've moved way past that now and he's yet to get on board with many things and still thinks """working class""" people should be his sole focus. I guess you missed the "modern minority issues" part of my post

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The working class includes people of color. In fact, in large areas of the country, they are predominantly the working class. Bernie's policies benefit people of color predominantly.

 

[Dream Machine]

He was standing up for the social politics of his day, when he was young. We've moved way past that now and he's yet to get on board with many things and still thinks """working class""" people should be his sole focus. I guess you missed the "modern minority issues" part of my post

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Take away all of the quotation marks. He actually means working class, which is, shockingly, not just straight white cis people

 

[Unknown Unknown]

 

[Madison]

And it is a dogwhistle.

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- Bernie votes a dozen times in favor of LGBT policies -

I sleep

-Bernie says a mildly questionable comment three years ago -

Real shit

 

[Kitsunelaine]

mildly questionable

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It's really wild that you think it's only mildly questionable and not a fucking affront to progressive activism but you do you

The working class includes people of color. In fact, in large areas of the country, they are predominantly the working class. Bernie's policies benefit people of color predominantly.

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Appealing to the working class is predominantly a statement designed to target white people. Constantly appealing to the working class and working class issues is predominantly designed to appeal to white people.

 

[Madison]

It's really wild that you think it's only mildly questionable and not a fucking affront to progressive activism but you do you

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I think that what a senator votes for during his entire time in congress is significantly more important that a single comment made over thirty months ago but I guess that consistency is for socialists

 

[Kitsunelaine]

a single comment made over thirty months ago

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You're right-- What people profess isn't important. Words don't indicate beliefs.

Eugh.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

There's a lot of ways to consider and choose what makes a candidate worth voting to you, and a candidate's age can and does often factor into how you make that decision, whether that happens implicitly or explicitly. It is an intensely personal choice, and there's a lot of things that factor into it.

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Replace the word "age" in this sentence with any other identifier for marginalized groups.

 

[Nocturnal]

It's much more important for some people that he would speak correctly, than to actually stand for something contentiously. "dog whistle" .... yeah I'm moving on this thread is always bringing the worse out of people. I think that out of all the white men in this primary(even Pete), Bernie is the one that has most personally felt the pain & sadness of being a prosecuted minority.

Appealing to the working class is predominantly a statement designed to target white people. Constantly appealing to the working class and working class issues is predominantly designed to appeal to white people.

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keep digging

 

[samoyed]

You're right-- What people profess isn't important. Words don't indicate beliefs.

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They don't really, actions indicate beliefs.