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Deleted member 8777

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Oh I'm sorry, was I supposed to write a bullet point list?

Also which "one sidedness" are you referring to exactly?
Just seems to me you're incredibly selective in what justifies absurd actions and what doesn't, like most libs are. Putin is a shitty right wing dictator, therefore we can use that to justify anything on the democratic side. Liberals were the people facilitating most wars in US history.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,448
MSN, WI
Calling Putin an evil dictator and wanting to put harsh sanctions them for trying (and succeeding in 2016) to harm our electoral system is WW 3?

Are we supposed to just shrug our shoulders and accept the fact they acted illegally with our election in this country in 2016?

Because Russia has nukes, that means we can't ever touch them for anything they ever do. Apparently.
 

Deleted member 5666

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Just seems to me you're incredibly selective in what justifies absurd actions and what doesn't, like most libs are. Putin is a shitty right wing dictator, therefore we can use that to justify anything on the democratic side. Liberals were the people facilitating most wars in US history.
He isnt just a shitty right wing dictator. He acted illegally to subvert our electoral process to make sure Trump won. They actively tried to destroy our elections.

How can you, as a fellow American, NOT want to counteract this in some way such as sanctions?

You are okay with rolling over and letting him destroy your democracy and your elections?
 

Lastbroadcast

Member
Jul 6, 2018
1,938
Sydney, Australia
Watching from afar I can't help but think Beto is being under-rated a bit.

Isn't he one of the few democratic candidates running to substantially increase democratic turnout at a real election in the last few years?
 

Deleted member 3896

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Just seems to me you're incredibly selective in what justifies absurd actions and what doesn't, like most libs are. Putin is a shitty right wing dictator, therefore we can use that to justify anything on the democratic side. Liberals were the people facilitating most wars in US history.
Congrats.

You managed to turn a post criticizing a homophobic Putin apologist into a ridiculous personal attack and a ludicrous derail. Not discussing this further here with you.
 

Deleted member 8777

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He isnt just a shitty right wing dictator. He acted illegally to subvert our electoral process to make sure Trump won. They actively tried to destroy our elections.

How can you, as a fellow American, NOT want to punish him for this in some way such as severe sanctions?
I'm not american dude. Hillary did the same to him in 2012. If you are going by the eye for an eye philosophy then everyone has crimes they gotta answer for.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,851
Japan
Just seems to me you're incredibly selective in what justifies absurd actions and what doesn't, like most libs are. Putin is a shitty right wing dictator, therefore we can use that to justify anything on the democratic side. Liberals were the people facilitating most wars in US history.

What the fuck is this?

You suggest Klobuchar wants to be like Putin, then post a video where she makes a poor attempt to try to make light of her own abuses, playing it off as making her tough.

Then Mercury Fred says there's a difference between Klobuchar's abuses and Putin's, and one isn't going to necessarily escelate to the other. Then you take issue with the example Mercury Fred provides, because there's some unwritten rule that if you're going to provide an example of abuse of power, it has to be the worst possible. Nope, murder isn't good enough. And now you're claiming that he's being "selective" ... for selecting examples? Is that it? And that somehow his post implies that some other actions are not absurd? Like what does the bolded have to do with anything that he posted?

Are you a real poster? Am I a fool for responding to this?
 

Deleted member 5666

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I'm not american dude. Hillary did the same to him in 2012. If you are going by the eye for an eye philosophy then everyone has crimes they gotta answer for.
If you were an actual voter you wouldn't be so flippant about Putin destroying our electoral process in 2016. This stuff happened right here in front of us. It happened to us. We can't be as flippant and just hand-wave it and pretend it didn't happen. We have to work to protect our electoral system and let Russia be clearly made aware that altering our elections is unacceptable.
 
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Deleted member 8777

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What the fuck is this?

You suggest Klobuchar wants to be like Putin, then post a video where she makes a poor attempt to try to make light of her own abuses, playing it off as making her tough.

Then Mercury Fred says there's a difference between Klobuchar's abuses and Putin's, and one isn't going to necessarily escelate to the other. Then you take issue with the example Mercury Fred provides, because there's some unwritten rule that if you're going to provide an example of abuse of power, it has to be the worst possible. Nope, murder isn't good enough. And now you're claiming that he's being "selective" ... for selecting examples? Is that it? And that somehow his post implies that some other actions are not absurd? Like what does the bolded have to do with anything that he posted?

Are you a real poster? Am I a fool for responding to this?
Well yeah. The general point being there is more to being an evil person with power than just assassinations of political opponents. I feel like to people like you, democracy is genuinely just a joke. Not a case of the people deciding who is the best person to serve for this office, just a popularity contest. You are so staggered by someone presenting an alternative position that you have to make light of them. Don't elect warmongers and people who imply they wanna commit atrocities on a global scale, look at your own history. What kind of human being would disagree with that general premise?
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
If you were an actual voter you wouldn't be so flippant about Putin destroying our electoral process in 2016. This stuff happened right here in front of us. It happened to us. We can't be as flippant and just hand-wave it and pretend it didn't happen. We have to work to protect our electoral system and let Russia be clearly made aware that altering our elections is unacceptable.
I think you're exaggerating. our electoral process wasn't destroyed. Trump is very popular with his republican base and Hillary underperformed.
 

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I think you're exaggerating. our electoral process wasn't destroyed. Trump is very popular with his republican base and Hillary underperformed.

They tipped the scales just enough to score a victory, our democracy is more fragile than you think. Had Russia not interfered Hillary likely would have won. And they're rearing to try it again in '20.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
They tipped the scales just enough to score a victory, our democracy is more fragile than you think. Had Russia not interfered Hillary likely would have won. And they're rearing to try it again in '20.
I think people are looking at the wrong things. Comey, probably had a much more pronounced effect on the election than Facebook bots. And liberals have mostly moved on from being upset at him.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
As an american, I consider that such a nativist crappy rule. Hopefully in our lifetimes we can evolve past it and discard that nonsense.
I tend to agree in principle but at the same time, I'm kinda glad Schwarzenegger can't run for president because there's a more than good chance he'd win.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Who are they backing this time? The insane socialist who's gonna enact actual anarchy?

Tulsi looks to be the winner in that regard, but they'll side with Trump in the general. I may dislike Bernie but he's not going to do that if he becomes POTUS lol

Your casual disregard for the threat Russia is to America at this moment is bewildering.

I tend to agree in principle but at the same time, I'm kinda glad Schwarzenegger can't run for president because there's a more than good chance he'd win.

Agreed. He seems like another Reagan in the making on the national stage.

I think people are looking at the wrong things. Comey, probably had a much more pronounced effect on the election than Facebook bots. And liberals have mostly moved on from being upset at him.

That was definitely another factor in Trump's favour.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
I think people are looking at the wrong things. Comey, probably had a much more pronounced effect on the election than Facebook bots. And liberals have mostly moved on from being upset at him.

Accurate. His letter to Congress swung the election.
Who are they backing this time? The insane socialist who's gonna enact actual anarchy?

What is this shit. I don't like Sanders much but he hasn't shown anywhere near the contempt Trump has for the democratic process.
 

Deleted member 5666

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14,753
Doubtful. The electoral college system isn't going to let a woman win. Our country is just too sexist.
Without the Comey letter we would have had a woman President 2 years ago.

Who are they backing this time? The insane socialist who's gonna enact actual anarchy?
Bernie is going to enact anarchy? Or socialism? How? With a senate that will either still be GOP controlled or barely Dem controlled where centrist Dem senators will be the swing voters on everything?

Even the *best* case scenario is we will have centrist senators like Manchin, Sinema, etc being the deciding votes in a 50-51 seat majority. You need to tamper expectations. A lot. Who is President will not change any of these facts.
 
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Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,851
Japan
Well yeah. The general point being there is more to being an evil person with power than just assassinations of political opponents. I feel like to people like you, democracy is genuinely just a joke. Not a case of the people deciding who is the best person to serve for this office, just a popularity contest. You are so staggered by someone presenting an alternative position that you have to make light of them. Don't elect warmongers and people who imply they wanna commit atrocities on a global scale, look at your own history. What kind of human being would disagree with that general premise?

Mercury Fred never claimed that there wasn't.

Oh, baseless accusations about me and my views on "democracy" based on a grand total of, what, 7 or 8 posts I've made in this thread that had nothing to do with anything that you're talking about? Is the "don't elect blah blah blah" line supposed to imply that I want to elect ... Amy Klobuchar?
 

RoKKeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,375
Watching from afar I can't help but think Beto is being under-rated a bit.

Isn't he one of the few democratic candidates running to substantially increase democratic turnout at a real election in the last few years?
I will say that even in the first few days seeing him in "Beto mode" in Iowa makes me inclined to agree. He probably won't win the "Twitter war" for the ultra-progressives, but his ground game and GOTV is going to be formidable.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I wonder if we Americans will ever have enough self awareness to remember that righteous indignation we feel for someone having the gall to interfere with our elections when we're running around the world doing exactly that in other countries all the time.

It's so fucking obnoxious.
 

KingK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,843
Hillary was a shitty candidate who ran a shitty campaign. Russia ran a serious disruption campaign in our election and (almost certainly) conspired with the sitting POTUS to do so; that should merit a response. The response does not have to be an escalation to war. Those things are all true and not contradictory.

Also Tulsi's tweet was fucking garbage. Trump has bent over backwards for Putin at every opportunity and never said a bad word about the man. Her claim is just bullshit on the face of it because pretty much everything Trump's done in foreign policy is to Putin's favor.

I don't understand how some leftists fall so fucking hard for the Russia Today propaganda, even while knowing Putin is a far right dictator. Like, these types will believe all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories with no evidence, only to suddenly be skeptical of actual conspiracy committed in broad daylight by Putin. This is Tulsi's base.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,448
MSN, WI
I think people are looking at the wrong things. Comey, probably had a much more pronounced effect on the election than Facebook bots. And liberals have mostly moved on from being upset at him.

That's the problem finding people to cast blame onto for the '16 election. It was so close where it mattered that any one of the myriad things big and small that have been blamed could've tipped the scales had they gone the other way.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
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Oct 25, 2017
73,316
"I have the most progressive record of anybody running..."

e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme_419-238.jpg

He means in the Republican Primary
 

KingK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,843
I wonder if we Americans will ever have enough self awareness to remember that righteous indignation we feel for someone having the gall to interfere with our elections when we're running around the world doing exactly that in other countries all the time.

It's so fucking obnoxious.
What's also obnoxious is the people who will (rightfully) call out the US for election interference in the past while saying the 2016 election interference was no big deal and is overblown (not saying you're doing this, btw, just in general).

I think what the US does/has done in that regard is abhorrent and I've been disgusted with much of our covert interference abroad since high school when I started paying attention. That doesn't mean I should just accept it happening to our elections. It shouldn't be happening at all!

100%, but the bar for the GOP is so low, only Barbados Slim could limbo under it
I understood that reference
 

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I wonder if we Americans will ever have enough self awareness to remember that righteous indignation we feel for someone having the gall to interfere with our elections when we're running around the world doing exactly that in other countries all the time.

It's so fucking obnoxious.

Do you endorse what Russia did or like the results? I don't, and I don't appreciate when America does it, either. It's the tool which I hate, who the target is is irrelevant.

It's not like people can't hate both things.
 

Deleted member 8777

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Do you endorse what Russia did or like the results? I don't, and I don't appreciate when America does it, either. It's the tool which I hate, who the target is is irrelevant.

It's not like people can't hate both things.
So why do you want people in power who have proven they have no problem with it? You honestly think Kamala Harris is gonna think twice about toppling a foreign regime?
 

dots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,889
Watching from afar I can't help but think Beto is being under-rated a bit.

Isn't he one of the few democratic candidates running to substantially increase democratic turnout at a real election in the last few years?
I don't know that there's any proof that he really drove turnout more than any decent candidate would in Texas. Usually the Democrats don't put up a serious challenger. Beto wasn't a complete joke and everyone hates Cruz, so it isn't surprising that he did better than most Dems in Texas senate races.

For the national election I'm no sure that a centrist like Beto is the most electable option. He'll drive away people on the left, and likely on't be able to peel off many Trump voters.
 

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
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So why do you want people in power who have proven they have no problem with it? You honestly think Kamala Harris is gonna think twice about toppling a foreign regime?

Why are you conflating war with subverting elections? You're ignoring the fact that we have a limited number of candidates to choose from who will do things we don't like occasionally, and we can't make our own perfect candidates from scratch. Or the fact the military industrial complex likely doesn't give a shit what President Bernie thinks and will do what it wants, regardless. Foreign policy is complicated, man.
 

Deleted member 5666

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So why do you want people in power who have proven they have no problem with it? You honestly think Kamala Harris is gonna think twice about toppling a foreign regime?
Russia subverted our elections and you think merely responding to that with tough sanctions and treating Putin like the enemy he is = toppling regimes?
 

Deleted member 8777

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Why are you conflating war with subverting elections? You're ignoring the fact that we have a limited number of candidates to choose from who will do things we don't like occasionally, and we can't make our own perfect candidates from scratch. Or the fact the military industrial complex likely doesn't give a shit what President Bernie thinks and will do what it wants, regardless. Foreign policy is complicated, man.
I'm pretty sure the president of the united states is in charge of the military and gets to have final say in any attacks carried out on foreign soil, and covert operations too. I don't think the MIC is gonna be attacking anyone unless the president agrees to it.
 

kambaybolongo

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm pretty sure the president of the united states is in charge of the military and gets to have final say in any attacks carried out on foreign soil, and covert operations too. I don't think the MIC is gonna be attacking anyone unless the president agrees to it.
Bernie derangement syndrome effects people in different ways
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
I'm pretty sure the president of the united states is in charge of the military and gets to have final say in any attacks carried out on foreign soil, and covert operations too. I don't think the MIC is gonna be attacking anyone unless the president agrees to it.
Lol if you think Bernie won't be doing covert actions, drone strikes etc. he might use them LESS, in the best case scenario but no military actions at all would be pure insanity.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
I wonder if we Americans will ever have enough self awareness to remember that righteous indignation we feel for someone having the gall to interfere with our elections when we're running around the world doing exactly that in other countries all the time.

It's so fucking obnoxious.

"And you lynch negroes".

Not to flaunt my leftist dick, but I routinely call out the USA as a genocidal maniac, a serial killer with a body count in countries that eclipses the average human serial killer. And yes, don't forget about our subservience to other genocidal states in Saudi Arabia and Israel through the ages and many different administrations where we're (still) all too willing to help them persecute and murder innocents.

But I can walk and chew gum at the same time and recognize that a far right homophobic and racist gangster state in Russia has been illegally influencing and funding some of the worst elements of America's society, who not surprisingly are intent on making sure that the USA keeps up its bloody streak around the world and on its own citizens. Seriously, fuck all of that. I'm not going to lie down for that bullshit just because the USA is no angel.
 

Deleted member 8777

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Lol if you think Bernie won't be doing covert actions, drone strikes etc. he might use them LESS, in the best case scenario but no military actions at all would be pure insanity.
No shit. Still better than anyone else on the table. Can't even begin to imagine being a left winger and claiming Russia is doing irreparable damage to the most giant empire in existence.
 

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I'm pretty sure the president of the united states is in charge of the military and gets to have final say in any attacks carried out on foreign soil, and covert operations too. I don't think the MIC is gonna be attacking anyone unless the president agrees to it.

Nope. No nation leader micromanages their military like that, and the US concern is very complicated with various parts who are powerful in their right. Which goes into business, intelligence and general warfare. The POTUS may be the most powerful person in the US but they do have limits and foreign policy covers a huge territory with intelligence, business and the military. Bernie won't be able to do everything he wants. The military industrial complex is a factor no single president can reform or destroy on their own.
 

Dream Machine

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Oct 25, 2017
13,085
What's also obnoxious is the people who will (rightfully) call out the US for election interference in the past while saying the 2016 election interference was no big deal and is overblown (not saying you're doing this, btw, just in general).

I think what the US does/has done in that regard is abhorrent and I've been disgusted with much of our covert interference abroad since high school when I started paying attention. That doesn't mean I should just accept it happening to our elections. It shouldn't be happening at all!


I understood that reference
Do you endorse what Russia did or like the results? I don't, and I don't appreciate when America does it, either. It's the tool which I hate, who the target is is irrelevant.

It's not like people can't hate both things.
No elections should be interfered with. It's a big deal to interfere with another country's elections and should be treated as such.

I find it hard to believe many people who are disgusted by Putin interfering hate both when they have no concept of US international interference throughout history, and are actively cheering on the same behavior whenever it's not here. That "I hate both" rhetoric gets lost extremely fast once the coup, invasion, undermining of democracy, or toppling of local government gets dressed up with "spreading democracy" and taken at face value.
"And you lynch negroes".

Not to flaunt my leftist dick, but I routinely call out the USA as a genocidal maniac, a serial killer with a body count in countries that eclipses the average human serial killer. And yes, don't forget about our subservience to other genocidal states in Saudi Arabia and Israel through the ages and many different administrations where we're (still) all too willing to help them persecute and murder innocents.

But I can walk and chew gum at the same time and recognize that a far right homophobic and racist gangster state in Russia has been illegally influencing and funding some of the worst elements of America's society, who not surprisingly are intent on making sure that the USA keeps up its bloody streak around the world and on its own citizens. Seriously, fuck all of that. I'm not going to lie down for that bullshit just because the USA is no angel.
Put your soviet propaganda comparisons and your leftist dick away, please

The post was made to say we should learn that what we casually do to other people is a real crisis when it happens to us, so we should learn from that, but we probably won't considering even bringing it up causes everyone to get defensive and bring out out their whataboutisms (hold on, that's a russian thing too!!!)
 

Deleted member 3896

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No elections should be interfered with. It's a big deal to interfere with another country's elections and should be treated as such.

I find it hard to believe many people who are disgusted by Putin interfering hate both when they have no concept of US international interference throughout history, and are actively cheering on the same behavior whenever it's not here. That "I hate both" rhetoric gets lost extremely fast once the coup, invasion, undermining of democracy, or toppling of local government gets dressed up with "spreading democracy" and taken at face value.

Put your soviet propaganda comparisons and your leftist dick away, please

The post was made to say we should learn that what we casually do to other people is a real crisis when it happens to us, so we should learn from that, but we probably won't considering even bringing it up causes everyone to get defensive and bring out out their whataboutisms (hold on, that's a russian thing too!!!)
Your first post was a classic whataboutism.
 

Deleted member 8777

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User Banned (Duration Pending): Trolling, multiple bad faith posts disrupting actual discussion. History of similar behavior.
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