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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
And I disagree. Time and time again we've seen that what drives GOP voters to vote against social safety nets is not the incorrect belief that they are voting for policies that will benefit them but that they are voting against policies that will benefit Black People.

You don't get to 'disagree' with people's personally stated reasons for voting, even if you think that their beliefs are misguided. Even if they're unequivocally wrong, they're still voting for their wrongly held beliefs; this isn't even debatable.

As this reply tweet points out:

Her tweet was a bad argument. And there are a lot of great arguments in the twitter feed to it to explain why.

All 'arguments' on Twitter are poor, to a degree. The platform doesn't really allow good, substantive arguments either way, which is why I pointed to those videos as better examples of her understanding on this issue.

I compared her to Bernie Sanders himself

But hey I appreciate you taking me at my word and not the words I never said.

Holy shit, I could've sworn I saw a 'bro' in there. My bad!
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
3,031
I'm tired of Hearing statements like this. Despite what little he achieved Obama ran on a clear platform not only relying on his charm. I mean why do you think the ACA is named the OBAMA CARE!
Obama's campaign was clearly about Health care first. I'm sorry but I don't see Beto going far unless he can find at least one idea and latch onto it. As of today, I see him as a divisive figure, just the fact that his first slogan ish was "born to be in it" rubbed so many people the wrong way.

It was called Obamacare because it was meant to rile up the Republican base against it, because they hated Obama that much. They hated Obama the same way we hate Trump- except that we have a good reason for our hate, and they were just racists or brainwashed by Fox News.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,638
All things considered, I think Bernie and Beto's numbers are equally impressive - the former will probably get a bigger grassroots support and recurrent donations despite the slower start.
 

minsk

Member
Jan 28, 2019
73
Maybe this is less obvious to you guys because a lot of you aren't immigrants, but it's been quite clear from the beginning to me that Beto's distinguishing issue is immigration. It was all his political messaging was about between the end of his senate campaign and his presidential announcement. Personally, I feel pretty confident that Beto, if elected, will push wholeheartedly for more liberal immigration policy, whereas I am less confident this is true of others, who have shown protectionist instincts in the past. (Plus, I think he has the best chance out of all of the candidates to influence the terrible rhetoric surrounding immigrants in a positive direction.) As an immigrant, and as someone who is generally interested in the freedom of human beings to move to places in pursuit of a better life, this is a topic that is of very high priority to me, which is why I'm currently most leaning his way.

I'm honestly beginning to find the "he has no policy platform or distinguishing issues" rhetoric irritating, because it seems to me that this rhetoric is implicitly conveying the message that immigration isn't that important. Easy not to pay attention to immigration if you have the privilege of being born American—not so easy if you're an immigrant yourself. So yeah, I guess you could say I find this rhetoric to reflect a certain privilege on behalf of the speaker.

Beto's messaging has been very clear and distinct on this issue—a lot of people just haven't been paying attention.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
I think immigration is the closest thing he kinda has as a flagship issue and Immigration could be the one I care about the most but.... I don't see immigration being the thing that gets people to the polls.
As far as health care goes he does not seem to be pushing for it as much as any of the other candidates and his plan what I gather so far seems to just bring Obama Care back and somehow make it better.
But fine if it then makes it known Bold letters front and center.


It gets the wrong people to the polls.
 

BoboBrazil

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,765
Does the amount raised matter in terms of gauging enthusiasm? If so, why would the amount matter but not the number of donors?
Comparing number of donors is not really a fair comparison when you have someone who ran for president in 2016 and has a list of donors across the US on a much larger scale with more name recognition vs someone who just ran for senate in TX

Maybe this is less obvious to you guys because a lot of you aren't immigrants, but it's been quite clear from the beginning to me that Beto's distinguishing issue is immigration. It was all his political messaging was about between the end of his senate campaign and his presidential announcement. Personally, I feel pretty confident that Beto, if elected, will push wholeheartedly for more liberal immigration policy, whereas I am less confident this is true of others, who have shown protectionist instincts in the past. (Plus, I think he has the best chance out of all of the candidates to influence the terrible rhetoric surrounding immigrants in a positive direction.) As an immigrant, and as someone who is generally interested in the freedom of human beings to move to places in pursuit of a better life, this is a topic that is of very high priority to me, which is why I'm currently most leaning his way.

I'm honestly beginning to find the "he has no policy platform or distinguishing issues" rhetoric irritating, because it seems to me that this rhetoric is implicitly conveying the message that immigration isn't that important. Easy not to pay attention to immigration if you have the privilege of being born American—not so easy if you're an immigrant yourself. So yeah, I guess you could say I find this rhetoric to reflect a certain privilege on behalf of the speaker.

Beto's messaging has been very clear and distinct on this issue—a lot of people just haven't been paying attention.

☝️
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Bernie happened to announce his run in the middle of the poll. Why they polled Biden and not Bernie, I don't know, maybe they thought it was more likely Biden would announce or something.

That doesn't make sense to me when Biden's polling is more recent. They could have simply omitted Sanders from that poll if they wanted to wait until the next polling period after he announced his candidacy.
 

SaveWeyard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,540
And I disagree. Time and time again we've seen that what drives GOP voters to vote against social safety nets is not the incorrect belief that they are voting for policies that will benefit them but that they are voting against policies that will benefit Black People.

It is incorrect from your perspective, not theirs. Do you really think the majority of GOP voters are going around voting against their own interests because they enjoy being racist?
 

JVID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,196
Chicagoland
Way too much emphasis on 24 hour donation numbers. Beto got the higher ammount of donations, Bernie got the higher number of donors.
This could have been infered to be the case since monday when Beto didnt release the number of donors with the announcement.
Instead it was made in to some stupid conspiracy.
Both numbers will be completely irrelevant going forward since.. you know it was 1-day. Both canidates numbers accomplished their purpose of launching the campaigns.
 

Hirok2099

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,399
Comparing number of donors is not really a fair comparison when you have someone who ran for president in 2016 and has a list of donors across the US on a much larger scale with more name recognition vs someone who just ran for senate in TX
☝️
To be fair it was Beto's supporters who started drawing comparisons. Just look at that tweet claiming that Beto's campaign is the biggest grassroots movement the country has ever seen.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
You don't get to 'disagree' with people's personally stated reasons for voting, even if you think that their beliefs are misguided. Even if they're unequivocally wrong, they're still voting for their wrongly held beliefs; this isn't even debatable.

I'm disagree with her and her assertions for why people are supposedly voting... and yeah even then I can because "economic anxiety" is often a dog whistle/excuse to hide their racist motivations, which has greatly been aided by the cover the news Media has given to it.
 

Schlep

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,772
Do you really think the majority of GOP voters are going around voting against their own interests because they enjoy being racist?

BO7rmKK.jpg
 

BoboBrazil

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,765
To be fair it was Beto's supporters who started drawing comparisons. Just look at that tweet claiming that Beto's campaign is the biggest grassroots movement the country has ever seen.

Not true. From the day after Beto announced, Bernie fans were asking why wouldn't he release his numbers. Once he did release numbers, the next step was to jump to conspiracy and demand individual donor numbers. There was a need for gratification from his fans that Bernie was better than Beto from the beginning. There's also the attacks on every other candidate they view as a threat from a large group of his fans that I don't see happening from supporters of any other candidate.
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,667
I'm disagree with her and her assertions for why people are supposedly voting... and yeah even then I can because "economic anxiety" is often a dog whistle/excuse to hide their racist motivations, which has greatly been aided by the cover the news Media has given to it.
I still remember the myriad of articles on "economic anxiety" and "identity politics" during the days following Trump's election victory.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
I'm disagree with her and her assertions for why people are supposedly voting... and yeah even then I can because "economic anxiety" is often a dog whistle/excuse to hide their racist motivations, which has greatly been aided by the cover the news Media has given to it.

She's not just guessing here; these are what voters are actually saying. If you wanna call them liars, that's on you, but it doesn't make you right, especially when there's plenty of evidence to show how these people are being manipulated into believing what they believe (which admittedly is due to racially motivated propaganda). Race reductionism is just as inaccurate of an analysis of the situation as class reductionism.
 

PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
That doesn't make sense to me when Biden's polling is more recent. They could have simply omitted Sanders from that poll if they wanted to wait until the next polling period after he announced his candidacy.
They did omit Sanders from that poll. On the chart you posted, it's a summary of the major candidates' favorability ratings according to their most recent data. Bernie should be included since he is one of the frontrunners at this point who has officially announced, but they don't have data since he hadn't announced at the time the last poll was conducted, so it's an awkward spot whether you pretend he doesn't exist or include what may be outdated data.

Here's the trend in his approval rating linked in the article, if this is more helpful.

MJbwccT.png
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
They did omit Sanders from that poll. On the chart you posted, it's a summary of the major candidates' favorability ratings according to their most recent data. Bernie should be included since he is one of the frontrunners at this point who has officially announced, but they don't have data since he hadn't announced at the time the last poll was conducted, so it's an awkward spot whether you pretend he doesn't exist or include what may be outdated data.

Here's the trend in his approval rating linked in the article, if this is more helpful.

MJbwccT.png

What I meant is that they should have removed him from the comparison for that time, it's simply not an equivalent comparison at all.
 

minsk

Member
Jan 28, 2019
73
Beto, champion of the bourgeoisie now confirmed.


Nah, that really is impressive. I wouldn't have guessed there would be that kind of excitement for O'rourke.

I threw him $10 to show appreciation for his strong pro-immigration stance and to help his launch go well so he could at the very least push the party left on immigration, so I guess I'm one of those bourgeois donors now 😂 Or do I have to donate $47 for that? What's the admission fee for the bourgeois class?
 

Deleted member 29676

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Nov 1, 2017
1,804
I'm struggling to find much about his campaign and are unwilling to spend more time doing it sorry but other than my memory of the time (healthcare was the reason I supported him) I found this speech since before he anounced his candidacy.
http://obamaspeeches.com/097-The-Time-Has-Come-for-Universal-Health-Care-Obama-Speech.htm
It seems as a senator he was already associated with universal healthcare proposals.
https://www.foxnews.com/story/sen-barack-obama-wants-universal-health-care-within-6-years

Which is even funny since his first official proposal as a candidate for healthcare that i linked to didn't even include universal coverage, which was the primary attack the Clinton campaign used against it.

If Beto doesn't have detailed positions by the first debate i think criticism is valid but saying him not having any now is a huge problem is a weak complaint. He has come out in support of Medicare for America, led protests for gun control, and advocated for drastic action on climate change. I expect details on all three to come out over the next few months.

That said i'll be looking for 2 things from all candidates what proposals can be done solely through executive actions and a list of people they'll nominate for the supreme court. I don't expect any broad sweeping healthcare, tax or climate bills to make it through the senate.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Comparing number of donors is not really a fair comparison when you have someone who ran for president in 2016 and has a list of donors across the US on a much larger scale with more name recognition vs someone who just ran for senate in TX



☝️
"Fairness" doesn't matter, only votes, and both donor numbers and amount raised can help gauge where the enthusiasm is with likely voters. Sanders didn't get any benefit from starting from behind with name recognition in '16 and neither does Beto right now. It is what it is.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
Beto, champion of the bourgeoisie now confirmed.


Nah, that really is impressive. I wouldn't have guessed there would be that kind of excitement for O'rourke.

I don't think people realize how close he came to beating Cruz in one of the deepest red seats in America. Watch what he'll do in the Rust Belt. Don't know if he'll get there, bu the has a bright political future ahead of him one way or another.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Can you link to this? If it's the interview I'm thinking of then he was decidedly not angry and simply said "I think not," when asked that.

Whether or not he should be taking advice from Hillary Clinton is a different thing (I don't think he needs to and is doing just fine without her input), but I have watched almost every single appearance he's had since announcing and I do not remember this big angry response you're describing.

Edit: Yeah I see it's been linked up there and I was remembering correctly. Nothing about this is angry or even oblivious. It's right there in his response: they have very obviously fundamental differences.

I read it very differently and still do. However you feel about his "sharp demurral" the complete inability to reach out to the several million people who picked Hillary over him in the primaries and the vastly many more millions who voted for Hillary and won her the popular election, or to acknowledge that at the very least, she and her campaign now know in exquisite detail how the 2016 election was interfered with, seems short-sighted at best.

Bernie should reach out to all those people - for their votes, their confidence in him and for information on how to avoid suffering a similar fate to Hillary. He doesn't owe anybody anything, but this is politics. Sticking to some internal principle that has no bearing on how to win the primary and beat Trump is a waste of time. I'm not sure why he isn't reaching out, but I'm baffled that it's even a question. Bernie had my support in 2015 and has done nothing to regain my confidence or my ballot since March of 2016. In fact on this matter and his taxes, he's going a bit groundhog day and I can't for the life of me see how this strategy is going to play out in his favor. And you can see in this thread (not just Bernie, other candidates too) folks turning on each other rather than pushing their candidates to the best path forward.
 

Fierro

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
960
I would love to see Elizabeth in the white house, either as president or vice.

I feel her with Bernie or Beto would be simply out of this world.
 

guek

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Oct 25, 2017
3,177
User Banned (Permanent): Rationalizing racism over a series of posts, previous severe infractions
She's not just guessing here; these are what voters are actually saying. If you wanna call them liars, that's on you, but it doesn't make you right, especially when there's plenty of evidence to show how these people are being manipulated into believing what they believe (which admittedly is due to racially motivated propaganda). Race reductionism is just as inaccurate of an analysis of the situation as class reductionism.
What people don't get when they say Trump was voted due to racism or due to economic anxiety is that racism is frequently stoked from misplaced economic anxiety. Briahna's point with her admittedly very clumsy analogy is that both a white and black person may take that offer for $100 and both may hesitate or not hesitate for different reasons, none of which changes the fact that BOTH race and economic need are playing a role. We consistently find in polling that people are more likely to vote against social programs or for cuts if it's framed as benefiting certain minorities and less likely if it's race neutral, and yeah that's totes racist, but the racist belief that minorities are abusing social programs stem not primarily from malicious intent to harm but rather misplaced economic anxiety about abuse of those limited resources.

It's still racism, sure, but that doesn't mean that racism isn't born from an economic fear that others are taking what's theirs.
 

Deleted member 4346

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Like him or hate him, I think he'd be the most formidable in the general. I'd prefer Warren, Mayor Pete or Harris over him but I can't deny people's excitement over him.

I think I agree. With Beto you have the most stark contrast between him and Trump, at least with the superficial stuff, but that goes really far with voters. He's the safe choice for the general election. I just don't believe we should be pivoting back to the center after Trump. We need real systemic change now, not just feel-good empty promises.

Why can't Beto have better policies? Eh maybe he'll get there over the course of the primary. Most of the field is going to be putting pressure from his left.

I threw him $10 to show appreciation for his strong pro-immigration stance and to help his launch go well so he could at the very least push the party left on immigration, so I guess I'm one of those bourgeois donors now 😂 Or do I have to donate $47 for that? What's the admission fee for the bourgeois class?

Anything over $27 ;)
 

Deleted member 10224

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lol Apparently Gravel loves to listen to teenagers when it comes to running his campaigns: Here's him talking about how some kids had an idea for the "Rock" ad video from 08



And here's another amazing ad: "Fire"

 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
1,134
I threw him $10 to show appreciation for his strong pro-immigration stance and to help his launch go well so he could at the very least push the party left on immigration, so I guess I'm one of those bourgeois donors now 😂 Or do I have to donate $47 for that? What's the admission fee for the bourgeois class?

It's more like being part of the "Liberal Metropolitan Elite". It's just something that chooses you.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
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There's the numbers you Bernie fans wanted so you can say he got more individual donations


Well, one individual donor = one vote, so these are good news for Bernie's camp. Although the strength of Beto's numbers is still worrisome. If Biden collapses too hard then it's over and he might be the nominee.

I am worried because I think Beto would be the easiest candidate for Trump to defeat ☹️
 

Deleted member 29676

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his record on business perhaps? Or his dislike of single-payer. Beto is a centrist on many issues, cant dodge that one.

He was literally a part of the New Democrat coalition on the house, cant get more centrist than that tbh

How is coming out in support of Medicare for America, which defaults to a single payer, showing a dislike for it?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Like him or hate him, I think he'd be the most formidable in the general. I'd prefer Warren, Mayor Pete or Harris over him but I can't deny people's excitement over him.
Baring scandal it's looking more like Biden is the most formidable in a general by a large margin. Sadly.

How is coming out in support of Medicare for America, which defaults to a single payer, showing a dislike for it?

That's actually a multi-payer bill.
 

Bobson Dugnutt

Self Requested Ban
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Oct 25, 2017
6,052
Why would it be the easiest for trump to defeat a charismatic, relatively scandal free politician who has a big fundraising base and gets a shit load of free media time?
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
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Why would it be the easiest for trump to defeat a charismatic, relatively scandal free politician who has a big fundraising base and gets a shit load of free media time?

Because he is a poor imitation of Obama's campaign without a glimpse of enthusiasm in key demographics and he is pushing a rhetoric of reconciliation. The lesson from 2016 should be about making your base go effervescent with excitement, not to seek for votes in "the middle"
 

Gaf Zombie

The Fallen
Dec 13, 2017
2,239
Like him or hate him, I think he'd be the most formidable in the general. I'd prefer Warren, Mayor Pete or Harris over him but I can't deny people's excitement over him.

Warren is my number 1 and I would love to see her anywhere on the ticket. That said if Beto wins, he's likely picking a PoC as a running mate. A Beto/Abrams ticket would be just nasty. Trump would call it "a ticket of loosers!" but I'm not sure that combination could be stopped tbh.
 
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