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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country


It's not being reported in any local media, there's plenty of fake news around, careful. I've also seen people posting on twitter news reports about Morales having asked the Venezuelan and Cuban armies to intervene, also untrue.

The political opposition does not have any need to organise a coup d'etat because the electoral fraud was evident, so much so that for the first time since coming to power in 2005, Evo Morales has been forced to rectify and now new elections have been called.

Also, the opposition leaders (Carlos Mesa included) are having a rather minor role in the whole affair; they did start the protests but now the civic leaders of each department plus the syndicalised social groups (miners, peasants, university students, civic leaders) are the ones that have been carrying the whole thing.

The two most prominent leaders in the whole movement have been Luis Fernando Camacho (leader of the civic Pro Santa Cruz Committee) and Marco Pumari (Potosí Civic Committee), neither of which are politicians. They have been followed by the civic leaders of almost all departments. Civic organisations and syndicalist leaders have historically had a lot of prominence in this type of movements. The Andean civic leaders and miner and worker syndicalists were who overthrew the right-wing government in 2003-04 (which led to the first victory of Evo Morales) and it's them who are organising this now.

They've been given support by most of the indigenous leaders of the different native tribes of Bolivia, including the Aymaran red ponchos, who were traditionally big Evo Morales supporters.

Indigenous representative of the Aymaran Ponchos Rojos embracing civic leader of Santa Cruz:




The whole thing has managed to become this big because Morales has lost the support of most of the indigenous peoples, peasants and workers outside of rural La Paz (where they still support him).

There's also a lot anger among Andean indigenous peoples, as they say Morales has appropriated their symbols and culture and use them as political symbols.

The ayllu (indigenous administrative unit) leader of Potosi and of the Qhara Qhara nation, among other Aymaran, Quechuan and Guarani nations have also showed their opposition to Morales:



It's funny, because when all this started, Morales played the card of 'the racist mestizos and criollos hate the indigenous'. But in fact the indigenous peoples were among the first to join the protests.
 
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Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
It's not being reported in any local media, there's plenty of fake news around, careful. I've also seen people posting on twitter news reports about Morales having asked the Venezuelan and Cuban armies to intervene, also untrue.

The political opposition does not have any need to organise a coup d'etat because the electoral fraud was evident, so much so that for the first time since coming to power in 2005, Evo Morales has been forced to rectify and now new elections have been called.

Also, the opposition leaders (Carlos Mesa included) are having a rather minor role in the whole affair; they did start the protests but now the civic leaders of each department plus the syndicalised social groups (miners, peasants, university students, civic leaders) are the ones that have been carrying the whole thing.

The two most prominent leaders in the whole movement have been Luis Fernando Camacho (leader of the civic Pro Santa Cruz Committee) and Marco Pumari (Potosí Civic Committee), neither of which are politicians. They have been followed by the civic leaders of almost all departments. Civic organisations and syndicalist leaders have historically had a lot of prominence in this type of movements. The Andean civic leaders and miner and worker syndicalists were who overthrew the right-wing government in 2003-04 (which led to the first victory of Evo Morales) and it's them who are organising this now.
In your opinion, who is the best candidate? Or who would you choose to replace Evo? Because I see Carlos as the best option among the candidates (shame he is a neolib, tho).
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
It's not being reported in any local media, there's plenty of fake news around, careful. I've also seen people posting on twitter news reports about Morales having asked the Venezuelan and Cuban armies to intervene, also untrue.

The political opposition does not have any need to organise a coup d'etat because the electoral fraud was evident, so much so that for the first time since coming to power in 2005, Evo Morales has been forced to rectify and now new elections have been called.

Also, the opposition leaders (Carlos Mesa included) are having a rather minor role in the whole affair; they did start the protests but now the civic leaders of each department plus the syndicalised social groups (miners, peasants, university students, civic leaders) are the ones that have been carrying the whole thing.

The two most prominent leaders in the whole movement have been Luis Fernando Camacho (leader of the civic Pro Santa Cruz Committee) and Marco Pumari (Potosí Civic Committee), neither of which are politicians. They have been followed by the civic leaders of almost all departments. Civic organisations and syndicalist leaders have historically had a lot of prominence in this type of movements. The Andean civic leaders and miner and worker syndicalists were who overthrew the right-wing government in 2003-04 (which led to the first victory of Evo Morales) and it's them who are organising this now.

They've been given support by most of the indigenous leaders of the different native tribes of Bolivia, including the Aymaran red ponchos, who were traditionally big Evo Morales supporters.

The whole thing has managed to become this big because Morales has lost the support of most of the indigenous peoples, peasants and workers outside of rural La Paz (where they still support him).
yeah thats why i asked, in sensitive times there's a lot of fake stuff
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
In your opinion, who is the best candidate? Or who would you choose to replace Evo? Because I see Carlos as the best option among the candidates (shame he is a neolib, tho).

Carlos Mesa is the least bad option. I am a leftist myself, so I am not a big fan of any of them, and that's one of the reasons why I personally resent Evo Morales, because I fear people will react to all this by steering to the right. So I believe Mesa is the least bad in this regard, because he is rather moderate, the only candidate to have included issues like gender equality and the only one not to have spoken against LGBT people.

But I do believe Evo Morales and the whole apparatus around him need to go, so the Bolivian left can be reformed; people are now associating 'the left' with Morales and his corruption and cheating, so he is toxic. We need new political agents that hopefully reject Bolivarian-style governments (Morales, Maduro) and embrace alternative politically and economically progressive ideologies. Bolivia has a strong syndicalist tradition (Morales himself started as a syndicalist), so it's not impossible.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,131
Chile
So he should have won by a minimal Margin, and then go to second round right?

So he Just.. threw Out of the Window His chances now.

What a shitshow.

At least he accepted It and calls for election. While in Chile the UN asks to stop using pellets and rubber bullets and the government says "no"
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,091
Morales should have noticed he was not going to win in the first round after his (close) lose for revoking the term limits. People just started noticing that he was way too in love with the power.

Shame he ended up going this road, after some very positive first years. Luckily, he seemed to accept new elections (and looking at the whole mess, an election he is very likely to lose).
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
Updates, a lot of events are ongoing:

* The state prosecutor has has announced an investigation and legal actions against the Supreme Electoral Tribunal, who were not only the entity that allowed Evo Morales to run again despite the Constitution and the 2006 referendum, but also are being accussed of participating in the fraud.

* The leaders of the Organisation for Bolivian Workers (COB), the main worker union of Bolivia and traditionally a staunch supporter of Morales have just announced they want the president to consider a resignation to pacify the country and allow the start of a new electoral process:



* The Minister of Minery has resigned, as well as the President of Congress and several other MAS governors. Some claim their private properties have been attacked by protesters.

* The Armed Forces have announced the beginning of terrestrial and air operations against armed, paramilitary groups (in reference to an ambush that happened earlier today where a fleet of coach buses carrying miners and university students from Potosí to La Paz to protest was ambushed and attacked by armed men, there are reports of deceased miners and female students kidnapped, reportedly they also attacked first medical responders):



EDIT.- Some are reporting that that military air operations have begun.

After the ambush, miners decided to guard the buses that were carrying the university students to prevent kidnappings:



* Thousands of Santa Cruz university students are currently traveling to La Paz (~850 km or ~530 mi). A massive demonstration against Morales has been announced for Monday and Tuesday.
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
The commander general of the Armed Forces has asked for Morales' resignation. It is over for him. Source

Evo Morales has lost support of the indigenous leaders, workers' unions, police officers and now the armed forces. It's over.

The presidential plane has taken off from El Alto International Airport. Unknown if Morales is on it.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
Was there proven fraud? If I'm not mistaken OEA was talking that they didn't accept the results even before the vote count ended. OEA is just a Trump puppet so I give them zero credibility.
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
Was there proven fraud? If I'm not mistaken OEA was talking that they didn't accept the results even before the vote count ended. OEA is just a Trump puppet so I give them zero credibility.

Please see this post. I myself wouldn't trust the OAS/OEA in any issue regarding a left-leaning Latin American country, but the fraud was pretty evident due to how things transpired. Many irregularities were found even before the OAS started the audit. The civic leaders that oppose Morales were also sceptical about the OAS intervention, but things were as I say too evident from the beginning. If you sum the social discontent and how Morales reacted, you have the recipe for what's happening now.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
Please see this post. I myself wouldn't trust the OAS/OEA in any issue regarding a left-leaning Latin American country, but the fraud was pretty evident due to how things transpired. Many irregularities were found even before the OAS started the audit. The civic leaders that oppose Morales were also sceptical about the OAS intervention, but things were as I say too evident from the beginning. If you sum the social discontent and how Morales reacted, you have the recipe for what's happening now.

I read that the difference of "trend" in the votes was due to the votes from poor/rural areas coming in later than richer/urban areas such as La Paz, and that Evo gets 70, 80% of the votes in those regions. But the 24h pause in the counts is weird.

And I don't get why there is a preliminary system, whats the point of having it? If I understand it right it is a fastsr method of counting, but that isn't precise. Seems like a good way of creating problems lol
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,091
I read that the difference of "trend" in the votes was due to the votes from poor/rural areas coming in later than richer/urban areas such as La Paz, and that Evo gets 70, 80% of the votes in those regions. But the 24h pause in the counts is weird.

And I don't get why there is a preliminary system, whats the point of having it? If I understand it right it is a fastsr method of counting, but that isn't precise. Seems like a good way of creating problems lol
Thats normal everywhere, where you first get a preliminar result done by the people that were in the election tables and then you get it legally sanctioned by state workers through a week. Having a second read over the results is always a good idea to make sure that there havent been any mistakes (or are, as they happen naturally, not impactful enough).
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
I read that the difference of "trend" in the votes was due to the votes from poor/rural areas coming in later than richer/urban areas such as La Paz, and that Evo gets 70, 80% of the votes in those regions. But the 24h pause in the counts is weird.

And I don't get why there is a preliminary system, whats the point of having it? If I understand it right it is a fastsr method of counting, but that isn't precise. Seems like a good way of creating problems lol

It would not account for a complete reversal of the trend, though. It's not like they left Morales' political bastions to the very end and there are also many isolated rural communities in the Amazon region (where Morales has always had low support) which would also be affected by this. At 80%, it is statistically unlikely the results of a election to change considerably, particularly in what refers to voting trends. Also, not in any of the previous elections when Morales won (nor in the referendum that he lost) were the results delayed by that much time.

Everything points out to the preliminary system being halted when it was becoming evident a 2nd round was going to be needed. Why resume 24 hours later? Not mentioning strange reported events like more votes coming from Bolivian citizens in Argentina than actual Bolivians registered to vote in that country, etc.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
So it seems Morales fled from Bolivia and is going to Argentina.

Edit: disproved.
 
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Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Morales resigned? Good, Piñera should do the same.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Glad he's gone. He did good and then let power corrupt him.

This is why term limits exist.

Just hope Maduro, Pinera and Ortega get the boot too.
 

Sal_S

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,476
Hamilton
Holy fuck. I hope this inspires Venezuelans, there's a march on the 16th that people were very hesitant on, but with this news it might be insanely huge.
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
So, with Morales resigning, the new election that he declared will not have him on as a candidate, right?

Legally, it should not. He is more invalidated than ever to run again:

1. The Constitution marks a 2-term limit.

2. The 2016 referendum confirmed this term limit.

3. If the party is involved in the electoral fraud, the Constitution establishes that it should be dissolved. In any case, it should not be able to run until investigations (that could take months) conclude.

I think resigning is actually a smart move, as it allows him to continue as an influential political figure in Bolivia. He says he is doing it to bring peace back to the country. Or maybe he is doing it because he has lost support of the armed forces and the police, the only two groups that could keep him in power.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,091
Legally, it should not. He is more invalidated than ever to run again:

1. The Constitution marks a 2-term limit.

2. The 2016 referendum confirmed this term limit.

3. If the party is involved in the electoral fraud, the Constitution establishes that it should be dissolved. In any case, it should not be able to run until investigations (that could take months) conclude.

I think resigning is actually a smart move, as it allows him to continue as an influential political figure in Bolivia. He says he is doing it to bring peace back to the country. Or maybe he is doing it because he has lost support of the armed forces and the police, the only two groups that could keep him in power.
His greatest mistake was never to build someone up as his successor and try to be the forever candidate (even when the people told him no).
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
His greatest mistake was never to build someone up as his successor and try to be the forever candidate (even when the people told him no).

I genuinely believe that he intended to remain in power democratically for a long time. They have been building a strong cult of personality around him ("hermano Evo"), and the 2009 constitutional reform that changed terms from 4 to 5 years plus the 2016 referendum were aiming to that. It didn't work for him though.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,091
I genuinely believe that he intended to remain in power democratically for a long time. They have been building a strong cult of personality around him ("hermano Evo"), and the 2009 constitutional reform that changed terms from 4 to 5 years plus the 2016 referendum were aiming to that. It didn't work for him though.
I am with you on that (of him trying to continue as long as possible democratically), as he always seemed to try and do the best for the nation and not only for him unlike other left wingers in SA.
I thought / hoped the 2016 loss would be a reality check for him and would stop him from trying to continue the already worrying cult of personality he had started building, but the invalidation of that part of the constitution was a big YIKES moment. That he took this long to call for reelections (and now he officially resigned after losing all military support) was a sad thing (well, him rigging the stuff to begin with was sad, as he could have possibly won on the second round).
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Legally, it should not. He is more invalidated than ever to run again:

1. The Constitution marks a 2-term limit.

2. The 2016 referendum confirmed this term limit.

3. If the party is involved in the electoral fraud, the Constitution establishes that it should be dissolved. In any case, it should not be able to run until investigations (that could take months) conclude.

I think resigning is actually a smart move, as it allows him to continue as an influential political figure in Bolivia. He says he is doing it to bring peace back to the country. Or maybe he is doing it because he has lost support of the armed forces and the police, the only two groups that could keep him in power.

Didn't the Supreme Court invalidate the 2 term clause after Morales lost the referendum in 2016?

The people told him no. Morales tried again anyways. Deserved.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,131
Chile
Morales resigned. Sigh, good government but shouldn't have run again.

While Piñera has a bloodbath but has the support of Police and Military to protect the rich.
 
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Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
Didn't the Supreme Court invalidate the 2 term clause after Morales lost the referendum in 2016?

The people told him no. Morales tried again anyways. Deserved.

It invalidated it under the pretense that not allowing Evo Morales to run again would go against his human rights. That wouldn't pass in any truly democratic country. All democratically elected presidents before him served only for a maximum of two consecutive terms, why should he be any different? His party could still present a candidate, and if Evo endorsed them, they would have easily won.

The Constitution has not been reformed either, so the 2-term limit is still there, people were just ignoring it so Evo could run.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
It invalidated it under the pretense that not allowing Evo Morales to run again would go against his human rights. That wouldn't pass in any truly democratic country. All democratically elected presidents before him served only for a maximum of two consecutive terms, why should he be any different? His party could still present a candidate, and if Evo endorsed them, they would have easily won.

The Constitution has not been reformed either, so the 2-term limit is still there, people were just ignoring it so Evo could run.

Hmm. So the SC ruling really only applied to Morales's candidacy? LOL
Looks like the coup has succeeded

Naw, Morales got shown the door.

Ah, wait.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,091
Hmm. So the SC ruling really only applied to Morales's candidacy? LOL


Naw, Morales got shown the door.

Ah, wait.
Nah, technically everyone would be affected by that ruling, basically invalidating that part of the constitution (as it would be against a "superior law" which is humans rights). Just that it really... only affected him by total coincidence
 

pauloshinobi

Banned
Apr 3, 2018
428
Leftist governments in South America just can't catch a break, right? Another USA backed military coup fucking over a democratically elected president.
 

Bluelote

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,024
I like his attitude of resigning at least, it's likely the only decent alternative in this situation,
there is something seriously wrong with the latest elections results, in which he shouldn't even have been a part of considering the term limits that existed in his country.
 

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,617
Damn. The world is getting crazier than ever. The circumstances are appalling but who knows where this will lead.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,887
London
Shame that Morales let his ego prevail and became power hungry by messing with the constitution and faking elections. He could have endorsed a new candidate from his party and his party would likely win another election and maintain his positive legacy of building the economy and reducing inequality but no, he just wanted to rule forever. He fucked over his own image in the end.
 
OP
OP
Untzillatx

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
Leftist governments in South America just can't catch a break, right? Another USA backed military coup fucking over a democratically elected president.

Evo Morales was the worst thing for the Bolivian left, and I say this as both a Bolivian and a leftist. His administration was not truly leftist -he only really pushed left-leaning policies during his first term and then continued the right-wing status quo. The evident corruption and waste of money in populist measures (like building football fields in small towns, but not investing in public education or healthcare, let me remind you that Bolivia does not have a truly universal free healthcare system). He has done good things too, and he should be commended for them. Why couldn't he endorse a new candidate from his party instead of running again?

The Bolivian left needs a renovation, without Morales.

This protest has been a grassroots movement, whose main protagonists have been university students and social movements: workers, syndicalists, women and miners. The main indigenous nations have all supported this process from the beginning, tired of having their ancestral symbols (like the Wiphala and the Andean cross) used for political propaganda. The same people that overthrew the right-wing government in 2003 have now protested against him. The same worker unions, the same indigenous movements, the same public universities.

The leaders of the political opposition have not been protagonists at all. It's been the people taking the streets from day 1.

Bolivia has suffered many, many US-backed military coups. This is NOT one of them. People who throw around these terms at anything are really people who have not ever lived a real coup.
 
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Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
Leftist governments in South America just can't catch a break, right? Another USA backed military coup fucking over a democratically elected president.

So democratic that Morales ignored his own referendum because it didn't give the result he liked, then rigged the election counting, then organised violent suppression of the protests against this. Go cape for some other dictator, tankie.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
So democratic that Morales ignored his own referendum because it didn't give the result he liked, then rigged the election counting, then organised violent suppression of the protests against this. Go cape for some other dictator, tankie.
He is not being a good faith actor. Ignore it.
 
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