13 Sentinels removed from the Visual Novel Database (VNDB). Do you agree with this assessment?

[Nameless]

Free environmental exploration, optional environmental interactions, progression that routinely relies on going to correct area or interacting with the correct object in a certain sequence, the memory system, the RTS battles. It's an adventure game, as Era's GOTY database and this is correctly highlights.

When I pull up let's plays of Steins Gate or Danganronpa or any other go to VN, it's an entirely different thing than what 13 Sentinels is, and that's ok.

If the exact same game otherwise had a Western art style and dev, no one would be calling it a VN.

 

[Viale]

The theory that someone at the site didn't want 13S to interfere with their current Top 20 rankings may or may not hold water, but I can see the logic. If 13S is a visual novel, then it's without a doubt the best one ever made.

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Lol no. Doesn't touch some of the juggernauts of the genre. Not at all.


As far as it being considered a VN? meh, I don't particularly care about the distinction. I do feel it elicits a lot of the same feeling though. There are listings on vndb that definitely have more gameplay moments that are still on there with no problems, so I don't see why it would be omitted.

Free environmental exploration, optional environmental interactions, progression that routinely relies on going to correct area or interacting with the correct object in a certain sequence, the memory system, the RTS battles. It's an adventure game, as Era's GOTY database and this is correctly highlights.

When I pull oh let's plays of Steins Gate or Danganronpa or any other go to VN, it's an entirely different thing than what 13 Sentinels is, and that's ok.

If the exact same game has a Western art style and dev, no one would be calling it a VN.

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Danganronpa literally has you walking around and investigating as well though( and put a lot more thought into it)

 

[Stoze]

From what I remember, 13 Sentinels the test failed mainly based on two points, namely a lack of narration and that reading was constantly interrupted by the need for the player to interact with the game. And while I am on the fence about whether or not 13S should be listed on VNDB, I think that those are a pretty good set of guidelines in general. Otherwise you end up in the situation where basically every text heavy or story focused game is considered a VN.

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Those are pretty fair and significant disqualifiers imo, because yeah thinking back you really don't go very long without any interactivity and without narration it's not relying much on the "novel" part of visual novel.

Regardless though I have 0 problem with people considering it a VN, and frankly that's what I would call it for others because I think it sets up expectations better (without getting into long-winded descriptors) then say an adventure game or point and click. Especially with some of the typical anime bullshit in it.

 

[adj_noun]

I mash next on the text so fast that it sure feels like a VN.

 

[Pellaidh]

VNDB seems to have pretty clear-cut rules on what they count as a VN, and 13 Sentinels clearly doesn't meet any them.

The gameplay aspects don't really matter all that much. There's a ton of games on VNDB with gameplay much more extensive than 13 Sentinels. Utawaruremono is number 7 in the rankings, and that has much more and much better gameplay than 13 Sentinels.

Personally, I wouldn't really count it as a Visual Novel. It just doesn't deliver its narrative in the same way most Visual Novels do - it's almost entirely dialogue focused, the flow of conversations with picking topics is closer to a Bioware game than to VNs, and the constant interruptions are closer to an adventure game than they are to a VN.

Much like how I wouldn't consider Western parser IF, adventure games, or other forms of interactive fiction to be Visual Novels.

 

[NightShift]

I don't know much about visual novels but I looked up "persona" and apparently those don't count. Persona feels a lot more like a novel to me than 13 Sentinels.

 

[ShyMel]

I remember reading about the deletion last year and was not that surprised. The staff is very much in favor of following their guidelines, which leads to things like Zero Time Dilemma not having a listing.

 

[Deleted member 36578]

It's an adventure game.

 

[GhostTrick]

Where does the accusation that 13S was removed to protect Muv-Luv even come from? And what is it based on?
I've pretty much only seen it repeated by people on twitter who just state it as fact.

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It came from someone trolling.
Then people parroted it as a fact.
The game didn't even crack the top 50 at the time it was removed.

People are just heading into crazy conspiracies.

 

[Son of Sparda]

I thought it was more of an adventure game than a visual novel in the sense that you weren't locked into a scene with character portraits and giant text boxes covering most of the screen. When I think visual novel, that's usually what I think, so in that specific way, I do think 13 Sentinels is more than just a VN.

 

[construct]

their loss

that's all there really is to say about it

 

[Yappa]

Nah, not a VN as I don't see any of the anime character portraits displayed in a typical VN.
Perspective is different as well.

 

[MeepMerp]

Should be brought back if only to make people angry. Game deserves its #1 spot 100%

 

[Hexa]

Game genre restrictions are arbitrary with no clear universal guidelines, and thus ultimately depend on whoever is running the sites definition.

VNDB's primary standard for a VN is for the most part that it uses ADV/NVL or similar UI. All the other guidelines listed are really flexible and don't really matter. 13 Sentinels does not use such a UI and thus does not seem to fit VNDB's requirements for inclusion.

For further examples that illustrate how VNDB defines VN that I think are relevant in this case:

Death end re;Quest is a VN.
AI Somnium is also a VN.
The first and second Zero Escape games are too, but the third isn't, and thus isn't included in VNDB.

 

[bushmonkey]

The best visual novels are ones that try to stretch the genre in interesting directions so it shouldn't be penalised for being more than "just" a visual novel.

 

[sythyx]

Now hold your horses there mate. . Umineko still exists.

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This person speaks the truth, Umineko is the best VN ever made, with the best soundtrack in all of fiction

Leaving my personal feelings aside, about the top 20.. meh it isn't like an elite ranking, some of the are on it only in it because they have don't have a lot of reviews because they're not in english, that inflates their score, like Muramasa, Sakura no Uta and Eiyoku no Estia, once they're translated to english they're gonna drop for sure

The theory that someone at the site didn't want 13S to interfere with their current Top 20 rankings may or may not hold water, but I can see the logic. If 13S is a visual novel, then it's without a doubt the best one ever made.

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If you're talking about the best VN, while there's no unanimous consensous, the name that comes the most often is Muv Luv Alternative, which is also the untouchable 1st place in VNDB

 

[lambdaupsilon]

the vndb drama was incredibly clownish. like, there were mods calling people slurs for pointing out that their guidelines don't make any goddamn sense
why is P4D there but not the other two.
why is blazblue here but not guilty gear xrd, where the story mode is literally a vn with no fighting.
why are we trying to uphold the sanctity of the vn form when fucking umineko steamed hams on it
(also why is every title in romaji, please be less weeby)

 

[Big Powder]

It, and a few other titles that are listed on VNDB, aren't really pure VNs, but I still think they should be welcomed to the site due to the high level of crossover interest. I would also argue for the inclusion of Zero Time Dilemma despite it leaning more into Telltale-style adventure due to its connection with 999 and VLR which are absolutely visual novels.

 

[Scheris]

The fact they have Danganronpa as a VN but deny this game is proof their criteria is a joke.

 

[Kaguya]

Congrats for the pointless poll, OP.

 

[craven68]

For me it wasn't a visual novel....but they put sakura wars like a visual novel, this i don't understand too . Both should not be considered as a visual novel ( at least the one on ps4 should not).

A visual novel are game like higurashi, umineno, muv luv, stein gate, ever 17, g senjou no maou etc...etc...where you just read and sometimes interact which choosing which story you want to follow.

 

[Slaythe]

Nice way to completely fuck up your poll.

why is blazblue here but not guilty gear xrd, where the story mode is literally a vn with no fighting.

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Blazblue had some (limited) degree of interactivity.
Xrd is a literal movie at this point.

 

[Kaguya]

VNDB seems to have pretty clear-cut rules on what they count as a VN, and 13 Sentinels clearly doesn't meet any them.

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They really don't, though:

 

[tyfon]

I'm currently playing it (and having a great time), but personally I'm having a very tough time placing it!
It feels like a 1980s adventure game almost with SRPG.

Usually I'm not that into VNs but this has me hooked big time. Regardless of the genre it should be played :)

 

[Feign]

In many ways it feels like the evolution of the DS adventure games that mixed typical VN presentation with touch screen gameplay. That's something I've been waiting years for. However, I've never really tried to classify them, because they are both varied in content while being singular in vision. Like, what would you classify Layton as?

13 Sentinels is especially hard to classify because it exists as an examination of narrative, something people tend to associate with non-interactive fiction. Personally, I put it next to Disco Elysium and Outer Wilds. Despite the varying genres, all engage with genre tropes while creating something new and exploring the potential of their respective medium to tell a story. I don't know how I'd qualify that, but finishing those games all left me with a very similar feeling that I haven't gotten anywhere else.

 

[GhostTrick]

They really don't, though:

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I thought the same. Until I checked the story mode of those games.

 

[eXistor]

It's definitely its own thing, but I wouldn't classify it as a VN.

 

[Pellaidh]

They really don't, though:

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As far as I remember, these all use narration, have an ADV presentation, and contain segments of uninterrupted reading. The fighting games and Dancing All Night are pretty much VNs in their story mode. I never played New Days, but it seems to be and ADV formatted dating sim, and the screenshots on google show narration.

They do have gameplay, but like I said in my post, that's not really a deciding factor, and the rules themselves even say it's pretty subjective. The other rules (ie the ones 13 Sentinels doesn't meet) aren't.

 

[Deleted member 1055]

the vndb drama was incredibly clownish. like, there were mods calling people slurs for pointing out that their guidelines don't make any goddamn sense
why is P4D there but not the other two.
why is blazblue here but not guilty gear xrd, where the story mode is literally a vn with no fighting.
why are we trying to uphold the sanctity of the vn form when fucking umineko steamed hams on it
(also why is every title in romaji, please be less weeby)

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There are plenty of other silly, memey, or straight up terrible visual novels on VNDB.
The key word being visual novels, which was the crux of the matter with 13S.

So Umineko Steamed Hams being on VNDB has no bearing on whether or not 13S belongs there.

 

[Irene]

I'd say that it's more closer to a Point-and-Click adventure game. I's not just pure text. I think of Steins Gate and The House in Fata Morgana when I hear VN, and 13S isn't similar to them at all.


Also baffles me a bit that people consider Phoenix Wright a VN.

 

[craven68]

In many ways it feels like the evolution of the DS adventure games that mixed typical VN presentation with touch screen gameplay. That's something I've been waiting years for. However, I've never really tried to classify them, because they are both varied in content while being singular in vision. Like, what would you classify Layton as?

13 Sentinels is especially hard to classify because it exists as an examination of narrative, something people tend to associate with non-interactive fiction. Personally, I put it next to Disco Elysium and Outer Wilds. Despite the varying genres, all engage with genre tropes while creating something new and exploring the potential of their respective medium to tell a story. I don't know how I'd qualify that, but finishing those games all left me with a very similar feeling that I haven't gotten anywhere else.

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Disco Elysium was already on m'y list to play... But now i really want it haha

 

[ThreepQuest64]

Haven't played it yet but from the looks of it it's foremost a visual novel with a twist. Definitely not a conventional one but genre blends are very typical and I don't why you would exclude from either genre/subgenre.

Let it list under visual novel AND RTS.

 

[Deluxera]

It is probably closer to a point-and-click adventure game than what people associate with Visual Novel, which is purely about reading text and pressing a button to read more text.

That being said, genres shouldn't be based purely on gameplay mechanics (or their lack thereof). Someone who is into games such as 428 Shibuya Scramble or the Zero Escape series is much likely to be interested in 13 Sentinels than something like Blazeblue or Persona 4 Arena eventhough the story mode is purely about reading text.

 

[Feign]

Disco Elysium was already on m'y list to play... But now i really want it haha

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It has a very similar setup:

Spoiler: very vague setting comp

in that you're introduced to the world in a certain context but as you interact with it, what you knew shifts. It's easily one of the most interesting fictional worlds.

 

[ScOULaris]

Nice way to completely fuck up your poll.

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I'm not concerned about it whatsoever. I have faith that the majority of people voting actually, you know, read the poll options when selecting one. And if not, they can always just change their vote.

 

[Snarfington]

Yes it is a Visual Novel because the majority of the gameplay is going through VERY light gameplay in order to get to the next batch of text segments. That's how I categorise it, really, in the same way Ace Attorney is basically a VN despite having some light adventure segments where you complete basic steps/puzzles to proceed to the next batch of text/storytelling. It's a bit more complicated because of the RTS stuff but I don't think anyone is going to pretend that the RTS aspects are the real meat or purpose of the game.

 

[ScOULaris]

I just happened upon this rather excellent spoilercast for 13 Sentinels on YouTube today, and they briefly chime in on the VNDB saga in the timestamp below:




I'm not sure how involved any of them were when 13S was initially removed from VNDB, but one of them suggests that it was done in response to 13 Sentinels climbing the Top 20 charts rapidly after its release. Who knows if that was actually a factor, but I thought I'd share this clip since some people in this thread have made the same claim.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

Zone of Enders the first of mars is considered a visual novel

Z.O.E. 2173 Testament

The story is set within the Zone of the Enders universe. It is 2173 and humankind, in the search for a valuable resource called Metatron, has expanded its reaches to Mars and the moons of Jupiter, and full colonies have been established. However, Earth keeps a tight reign over the colonials...

vndb.org

But the super robot wars games aren't, despite ZotE:TFoM basically being a super robot wars game in every way but title.

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My personal feelings aside, this settles it as far as VNDB standards are concerned.

I played fist of Mars ages ago and at no point did the idea that it was a VN ever cross my mind. If Fist of Mars counts, then 13 Sentinels does, easily.

 

[Hexa]

I just happened upon this rather excellent spoilercast for 13 Sentinels on YouTube today, and they briefly chime in on the VNDB saga in the timestamp below:




I'm not sure how involved any of them were when 13S was initially removed from VNDB, but one of them suggests that it was done in response to 13 Sentinels climbing the Top 20 charts rapidly after its release. Who knows if that was actually a factor, but I thought I'd share this clip since some people in this thread have made the same claim.

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I don't think the theory that it was removed because a mod thought it was ranking too highly is all that likely. VNStat has it recorded at 8.21 as it's last score before it was removed. That would rank it at #36, which is pretty high, but not in the top 20. Plus, it doesn't seem to have been rising all that much as on November 28th it was already #42, which is about a month before its removal.

The immediate cause behind it happening is this thread which is dedicated to bringing database entries that aren't VNs to the attention of mods. To put it simply, a user posted it as a candidate for deletion. A mod agreed with them and said that if no one argued in it's favor they would delete it in a few days. There was some argument back and forth from users, and the owner of the site, yorhel, got involved and said that he was judging it as not a VN.

 

[Yasumi]

I agree that it's really not a VN. Honestly, it has much more in common with something like Monkey Island than The House in Fata Morgana. It's a very literary game, but it's not a novel.