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cozyduck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
92
I don't think she knew that the system was at it's limits at the time.

Morimura2188 should've presumably realized that when she accessed that. But my current understanding is that this would not be a hindrance for her plan. The "system being at its limit" only implies that in the next loop the entire pod facility would be remade, including sector 0 whose physical real world location is in said facility. However, other facilities such as the orbit facility would continue operating as is. When rebuilding the pod facility, the required data would be pulled from the orbit facility, including memory data for the rebuilt sector 0. But this data does not include any of the sector 0 backups the characters did over the last 2 loops. Those are only saved in the current sector 0. That's why if characters can not do something about their situation during this loop everything will revert to how things were 2+ loops ago and they'd need for another freak occurrence (like when Morimura's and Izumi's data got uploaded to sector 0 two loops ago) to stand a chance of ever breaking free again.

However, Morimura2188 fixed the code at the level of the orbit facility. So when the next loops does happen, even after a full rebuilt of the pod facility, the simulation would execute as originally intended (i.e., no Kaiju), so her plan would succeed.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,391
when does morimura2188 fix the orbit facility code? does she do it when gouto brings her to the 3/2025 mainframe? I don't believe she communicates directly with Inaba at any point (on camera anyway)

so morimura2188's ultimate goal is basically to enact the one she had originally, get project ark back on track properly without these goddamn deimos around, mindjack the 'real' chihiro's body at around age 18, and lead humanity into a glorious and prosperous future. or something
 

cozyduck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
92
when does morimura2188 fix the orbit facility code? does she do it when gouto brings her to the 3/2025 mainframe? I don't believe she communicates directly with Inaba at any point (on camera anyway)

so morimura2188's ultimate goal is basically to enact the one she had originally, get project ark back on track properly without these goddamn deimos around, mindjack the 'real' chihiro's body at around age 18, and lead humanity into a glorious and prosperous future. or something

She doesn't need to communicate with Inaba, she only needs to send the new commands to the computer on the orbit facility. She even explains to Gouto during that scene that she's done just that, which Gouto finds very surprising, since why even go for the sentinels if just fixing the D-Code like that had been an option all along. (Keep in mind that Gouto doesn't know she's Morimura2188 at this point). But only Morimura2188 has sufficiently high level admin permissions to do so, not the other Morimura which is just an AI at the moment anyway. (Maybe Fuyusaka would have permission too, if biometric ID is all that's required, but I imagine that's not the case, but rather some password verification would be necessary as well, and only Morimura2188 would know it)

In that scene you even see how she routes the command through one of the surveillance satellites since the orbit facility is beyond the horizon, which serves as foreshadowing for what happens during the final battle.
 
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Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,391
she does kind of just drop casual knowledge in front of gouto, she does a terrible job hiding herself. mind you she has no idea what morimura had done at that point anyway so i guess it's excusable
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Well, that was a ride.

- So, the Kaiju attacking was a predetermined war designed to...train...?...the fifteen for a rugged life on a new planet? Fucking...why? There are a million other ways you could train teenagers like this, and not potentially give them unbelievable PTSD for the rest of their lives? Why the massive back story of the attack coming from repurposes interstellar development machines, and all the other strange details and plot twists? Even if this was an unintended addition by Shinonome, I just don't get it.

Edit: well, okay, I guess Shinonome did so in a villainous context. She activated part of Okino's borrowed code? But why all the craziness? Agh

- Why did Gouto determine that Sector 0 would no longer work? Was it a gambit to deal with Ida?

- Were they being reborn every sixteen-eighteen years for millions of years? Or did the cycle of rebirth only begin when the scout units found a suitable planet?

I don't know, man. In one sense I'm impressed with the sheer NUMBER of sci fi concepts used here and still maintaining a somewhat cohesive narrative, but I can't help but think that a lot of this sort of falls apart under closer scrutiny. A ton of scenes felt repetitive, the constant "return" to a default state at the beginning of chapters made things unnecessarily unmemorable, and I feel like it could have used a strong editor to keep the best ideas and throw the bad ones out.

I still really enjoyed it, but I don't know if I can classify it as one of the best video game stories of all time. Sometimes, a little simplicity can go a long way.
 
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BearPawB

I'm a fan of the erotic thriller genre
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,998
Why how are there other people at the school on the new planet at the end?

Doesn't this just end in an incestuous genetic mess?
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,895
Why how are there other people at the school on the new planet at the end?

Doesn't this just end in an incestuous genetic mess?

If I'm remembering correctly it's part of the simulation, that's why they make references to each other looking different there than they do in the present (aka how they looked when they were younger)
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,021
Why how are there other people at the school on the new planet at the end?

Doesn't this just end in an incestuous genetic mess?

Those are still AIs that were brought back when they bring the 5 sectors back online.

Also the last scene with Gouto and Shinonome talks about attempting to manipulate DNA to bring the AIs into the real world as humans. That should in theory solve the problem of the gene pool.
 
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Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,895
Well, that was a ride.

- So, the Kaiju attacking was a predetermined war designed to...train...?...the fifteen for a rugged life on a new planet? Fucking...why? There are a million other ways you could train teenagers like this, and not potentially give them unbelievable PTSD for the rest of their lives? Why the massive back story of the attack coming from repurposes interstellar development machines, and all the other strange details and plot twists? Even if this was an unintended addition by Shinonome, I just don't get it.

Edit: well, okay, I guess Shinonome did so in a villainous context. She activated part of Okino's borrowed code? But why all the craziness? Agh

- Why did Gouto determine that Sector 0 would no longer work? Was it a gambit to deal with Ida?

- Were they being reborn every sixteen-eighteen years for millions of years? Or did the cycle of rebirth only begin when the scout units found a suitable planet?

I don't know, man. In one sense I'm impressed with the sheer NUMBER of sci fi concepts used here and still maintaining a somewhat cohesive narrative, but I can't help but think that a lot of this sort of falls apart under closer scrutiny. A ton of scenes felt repetitive, the constant "return" to a default state at the beginning of chapters made things unnecessarily unmemorable, and I feel like it could have used a strong editor to keep the best ideas and throw the bad ones out.

I still really enjoyed it, but I don't know if I can classify it as one of the best video game stories of all time. Sometimes, a little simplicity can go a long way

I'm trying to remember but I believe it was established that the world reset was a failsafe in case the conditions weren't good enough. Obviously then Shinonome fucked everything up, that's partially the reason for the 'craziness' beyond every character (including dead ones) seemingly having their own motivations.

I don't think they went into detail how the Sector 0 limited number of resets was discovered outside the fact that Izumi discovered this first before this information was passed to others.

I'm gonna say the resets happened after they landed on the planet and the terraforming began because it wouldn't make sense to keep resetting their lives for millions of years for no reason. Especially as they were supposed to gestate for the 18-20 years or whatever then leave. And again going back to the resets being a failsafe and there being a limited number of resets.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,021
Well, that was a ride.

- So, the Kaiju attacking was a predetermined war designed to...train...?...the fifteen for a rugged life on a new planet? Fucking...why? There are a million other ways you could train teenagers like this, and not potentially give them unbelievable PTSD for the rest of their lives? Why the massive back story of the attack coming from repurposes interstellar development machines, and all the other strange details and plot twists? Even if this was an unintended addition by Shinonome, I just don't get it.

Edit: well, okay, I guess Shinonome did so in a villainous context. She activated part of Okino's borrowed code? But why all the craziness? Agh

The original plan was to have the clones grow up in an environment to have them understand human culture before exposing them to the outside world when they're 18-20 years old.

Shinonome-2188 was the last of the original humans at the time of her recording. After the betrayal by her lover and seeing humanity as a self destructive species even till the end (Hijiyama and Izumi killing each other, Sekigahara killing Morimura despite only 10 survivors left), she fell into despair and deemed humans unworthy to survive. She decided to sabotage the Project by programming a kaiju invasion to force the system to reset before any of the clone could fully mature.


- Why did Gouto determine that Sector 0 would no longer work? Was it a gambit to deal with Ida?

Morimura was the one who discovered that there is a physical limit to how many times the system can reboot itself and that the system was at it absolute limit.

- Were they being reborn every sixteen-eighteen years for millions of years? Or did the cycle of rebirth only begin when the scout units found a suitable planet?

The planet was discovered and the terraforming process (which would take hundreds of years) was completed first.

Once that was completed the whole cloning process begins, but due to the kaiju invasions they have been stuck in this loop for hundreds of years.

It was hinted that at least 300 loops had occurred at this point.


I don't know, man. In one sense I'm impressed with the sheer NUMBER of sci fi concepts used here and still maintaining a somewhat cohesive narrative, but I can't help but think that a lot of this sort of falls apart under closer scrutiny. A ton of scenes felt repetitive, the constant "return" to a default state at the beginning of chapters made things unnecessarily unmemorable, and I feel like it could have used a strong editor to keep the best ideas and throw the bad ones out.

I still really enjoyed it, but I don't know if I can classify it as one of the best video game stories of all time. Sometimes, a little simplicity can go a long way

Due to the non-linear nature of how a player can choose to approach the story, it's impossible to edit it in a way that would flow completely naturally for every single player. As such a lot of discoveries can be made by different characters at different points of the story and players would come to form the progression of the story in their own ways in their heads.
 

donkey

Sumo Digital Dev
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,851
Just Platinumed the game. Man, what a ride. Loved how all the threads just came together and nothing felt "too much." I generally played a remembrance/destruction until the lock, then would switch accordingly. Wish there was a bit more history on the Sentinel project itself, but there's more than enough sci-fi shenanigans to indulge myself in.

Also, I appreciate the extra destruction levels. That mode was waaaaay more addicting than expected. Do wish we got more of an SRW-esque cutscene during the attacks like the attack previews, but I'm good.

And would love to see a pseudo-sequel/DLC based on another pod that took a drastically different turn, considering the extra scene alludes to that somewhat.
God, I wish this was on a switch. It'd be so much easier to compile this chronology if i could just check it like a book on the go instead of having to turn on the TV every time
Try remote play on your PC/Tablet/Mobile. Played it like that on my iPad/PS5 for a quarter of my playthrough while my fiancée was on the XSX with the main TV.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,755
So in the end I really enjoyed my experience but thought it was just a really well done, written collection of anime and sci-fi tropes.

I absolutely laughed out loud in the end when
Megumi had hulking large breasts that she covered up. We couldn't get a butt shot of Juro? Anything from the male in the scene? It had to only be the girl who didn't even exhibit a large chest in the game like Morimura? Lol.

also the idea that
they are 18 so it's okay they are naked is still dumb IMO. They thought they were 14-16 year olds.

and the thing Nenji says to Tomi at the end about her chest was so, so infuriatingly bad.

the ending plot wise was nice enough, but it felt like the designers tried to so hard to hold back on sexy designs and "fan service" aside from upskirt shots/Morimura but at the end lost all control lol.

I enjoyed my experience but I do think it's quality gets overblown a bit. Had it been hyped up for me less maybe I'd have not felt it feel a little short

also, it's really weird to me that Hijiyama was getting closer to accepting Tsuska as a male, and in the end it feels like Tsuska's tease is a bit tasteless. Instead of Hijiyama reconciling his feelings for Tsuska and the gender they have, they just make it all not matter in the end.
 
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Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
anyone has a translated version of the 3 part Famitsu interview? I really want to know about the development of this game, I thought it was in dev hell and that SEGA / Atlus was upset with Kamitani, so wondering what he had to say about how this game came about.
 

Slushimi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,548
Just finished the game after countless recommendations from here.

All in all I enjoyed my time with the game. Loved to see a very non linear game work out the way it did. Vanillaware deserves every praise possible for this game, and I hope they continue making more games like this.

But I have to admit it still was a bit confusing all in all. Doesn't help I had to constantly search up the names that were said in convo's between characters. Had to read quite a bit from the Archive to get a better idea of everything, at the end too.

The game itself reminded me quite a bit of the Muv-Luv trilogy (primarily Alternative). Would recommend that if you're craving for more.
 

Antoo

Member
May 1, 2019
3,779
The epilogue tied everything together too neatly. Everyone comes back and is somewhat redeemed. Like Miyuki all of a sudden gets over how terrible Ida is and Ida sees the error of his ways. Felt kinda gross tbh. It's not as if redemption isn't possible for the character, but it's too hastily rushed to make everyone have a happy ending that it comes across as unnatural.


Also, I have a question. Did 426 kill the students or not? I thought that he didn't although he tried to once and failed. Everyone else died by not being able to shift in time due to an explosion and Ida blamed it on 426. But I read the files and it implies he did kill them?
 
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EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,133
The epilogue tied everything together too neatly. Everyone comes back and is somewhat redeemed. Like Miyuki all of a sudden gets over how terrible Ida is and Ida sees the error of his ways. Felt kinda gross tbh. It's not as if redemption isn't possible but it's too hastily rushed to make everyone have a happy ending.
Strongly agree.
Also, I have a question. Did 426 kill the students or not? I thought that he didn't although he tried to once and failed. Everyone else died by not being able to shift in time due to an explosion and Ida blamed it on 426. But I read the files and it implies he did kill them?
He did kill them, just on a previous loop. Things always reset by design so it ultimately didn't matter that he did.
 

OwensboroEsq

Member
Oct 25, 2017
593
He did kill them, just on a previous loop. Things always reset by design so it ultimately didn't matter that he did.

Is that right? I could have sworn there was a part where it was revealed to Morimora that he didn't, which caused her to break down because she was tricked into killing him for killing the kids. Could be wrong. Finished the thing last night and need to go back through the logs at some point to wrap my head around the whole thing.
 

HououinKyouma

The Wise Ones
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,366
Miwako getting the Queen's treatment she deserves at the end. Brought a tear to my eye.

Really enjoyed the game overall. The characters were exceptional and I thought the story was good, albeit confusing to me. Wish it was a bit shorter, but still really damn good.

The RTS elements were actually more fun than I thought. I saw that they were criticized a bit, but I actually didn't mind them. Also, the music for some of them are BANGERS:

 
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HououinKyouma

The Wise Ones
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,366
Seeing Ryoko smile at the end too made me happy. That poor girl was just the embodiment of punishment the entire game.
 
Oct 28, 2017
203
I played through the game a month or so ago, got the Plat and everything and it was my GOTY for 2020. I have a friend playing through it for the first time and I honestly can't say the finer details about the game's story stuck with me lol or even made sense as I played, despite understand the overall story and "bigger" picture by the end of it all.

So, with that said, is there a good summary here or elsewhere of the entire plot and characters? I want to have a more in depth conversation with my friend who is getting through it now but I feel like "WTF" when I start thinking about a lot of the things that happened along the way. Should I just scour this thread for now?
 

BlackBoyFly

Member
Oct 12, 2020
172
Just beat the game. What a masterpiece in storytelling. I'm legitimately sad it's over.

I'm still kinda confused with the story, even after hours of reading about it in the mystery files and internet lol. But I think I'm close to getting it.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the story as this

So. In the late 2100s, humanity developed nanomachine tech. The tech got on the black market, the tech was faulty, the tech essentially wiped out humanity. 15 great minds survived and fled to a space colony.

There, they made a plan to revive humanity, project ark. Project arc would send probes out that were capable of A, producing the kaiju that would terraform compatible planets and B, host the clones of the 15 survivors. Countless probes were sent throughout the universe, to increase the chances of project ark being successful. While at the same time, leading to the possibility of infinite planets being terraformed and inhabited by the 15 clones. Infinite outcomes.

Project arc would have the clones go through a shared simulation, like the matrix, which they would stay in until they were 18, and then they'd be released into the newly terraformed planet with the knowledge of how to be human, through the events they experienced in the simulation.


But Shinonome (2188) became disgruntled with the actions of her co-survivors/humanity as a whole and sabotaged the project. She inserted the deimos code, which would lead to the destruction of the simulation, and the clones in real life. After this, the pods would regrow new clones, and start the simulation again, the "loop"

Clones who became semi aware of the truth, were able to escape to sector 0 before the next loop started. By doing so, they'd be able to grow into adulthood and live in the next loop. Ida and Ms Morimura did this. But by escaping to sector 0, their bodies in real life, on the pod would still be destroyed, but they'd be able to still exist within the simulation as a human AI essentially.

Our main characters beat the kaiju by making the simulation aware of the kaiju. Being aware of this, the simulation awakes them in real life, avoiding another loop. Thus, they are able to beat the simulation, and make it to the real world, where they start to rebuild.

The clones from previous loops, who became AI (BJ, Ida, 426, Professor Morimura) are essentially saved because our clones restart the loop to right before when the kaiju attacked. I think.

Where I'm real confused at, is with everything else lol

So, 426 figures some of this out in the previous loop, and escapes it, to the next loop, to influence events to make the new loop successful?

Morimura, also escaped from a previous loop, loses faith in the sentinels defeating the kaiju, so she wants to activate Aegis. Aegis will destroy the kaiju, but stop the loop process. Thus leading to everyone surviving, but living in a destroyed world?

Then I'm also confused about the construction of the sentinels. Okino says he designed them. Were they only in this loop? Or were the sentinels inserted in every loop/pod, to be created by Okino?
 
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Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
Just finished the game and thought it was pretty great! I will say the story didn't grab me quite like Odin Sphere's, but the sheer amount of detail was impressive and I really enjoyed how it came together. For the first like 20 hours or so I was totally confused and had no idea what was going on, but eventually I started to understand the basics, and after that point, it was really satisfying how the game kept layering on new reveals and twists.

The character I connected most with was Yakushiji, I thought she was so similar to me. The struggles she goes through, the way she thinks about Juro, how she reacts to events, and how she thinks of herself, it's all basically me.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,021
Just beat the game. What a masterpiece in storytelling. I'm legitimately sad it's over.

I'm still kinda confused with the story, even after hours of reading about it in the mystery files and internet lol. But I think I'm close to getting it.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the story as this

So. In the late 2100s, humanity developed nanomachine tech. The tech got on the black market, the tech was faulty, the tech essentially wiped out humanity. 15 great minds survived and fled to a space colony.

There, they made a plan to revive humanity, project ark. Project arc would send probes out that were capable of A, producing the kaiju that would terraform compatible planets and B, host the clones of the 15 survivors. Countless probes were sent throughout the universe, to increase the chances of project ark being successful. While at the same time, leading to the possibility of infinite planets being terraformed and inhabited by the 15 clones. Infinite outcomes.

Project arc would have the clones go through a shared simulation, like the matrix, which they would stay in until they were 18, and then they'd be released into the newly terraformed planet with the knowledge of how to be human, through the events they experienced in the simulation.

But Shinonome (2188) became disgruntled with the actions of her co-survivors/humanity as a whole and sabotaged the project. She inserted the deimos code, which would lead to the destruction of the simulation, and the clones in real life. After this, the pods would regrow new clones, and start the simulation again, the "loop"

Clones who became semi aware of the truth, were able to escape to sector 0 before the next loop started. By doing so, they'd be able to grow into adulthood and live in the next loop. Ida and Ms Morimura did this. But by escaping to sector 0, their bodies in real life, on the pod would still be destroyed, but they'd be able to still exist within the simulation as a human AI essentially.

Our main characters beat the kaiju by making the simulation aware of the kaiju. Being aware of this, the simulation awakes them in real life, avoiding another loop. Thus, they are able to beat the simulation, and make it to the real world, where they start to rebuild.

The clones from previous loops, who became AI (BJ, Ida, 426, Professor Morimura) are essentially saved because our clones restart the loop to right before when the kaiju attacked. I think.

You got the gist of it.

- My understanding was that a virus begun infecting the nanomachines which in turn kills the human.
- Project Ark was in development before the virus crisis but became top priority after it
- This part's a bit hazy but we don't really know what lead to only 15 DNA samples were chosen or how many other humans might still be alive at this time
- The clones would be made aware of their true at around 18 years old and spend the next 2 years being trained on how to survive the outside world. So our protagonists actually left the pod 4 years before they were suppose to.



Where I'm real confused at, is with everything else lol

So, 426 figures some of this out in the previous loop, and escapes it, to the next loop, to influence events to make the new loop successful?

Morimura, also escaped from a previous loop, loses faith in the sentinels defeating the kaiju, so she wants to activate Aegis. Aegis will destroy the kaiju, but stop the loop process. Thus leading to everyone surviving, but living in a destroyed world?

Then I'm also confused about the construction of the sentinels. Okino says he designed them. Were they only in this loop? Or were the sentinels inserted in every loop/pod, to be created by Okino?

Yes, regardless of what methods he use, 426's main goal is to stop the looping and to free everyone from this endless hell. I guess why it might seem confusing is because he's methods change as he learns more about what is really going on... And also because he's a bit of a dick about how he goes about doing it.

Morimura also wishes to "save the world", but her method of relying on the AEGIS system would trap everyone in this simulation with no way of escaping and no future. She abandoned the Sentinels because of DD-426 infecting them, she did not know that Okino had already been working on a solution.

Yes, the Sentinels were only here in this current loop when this current Okino designed them. I can't remember what let to this loop's Okino being the one to discover it, but I'm guessing it has something to do with Tetsuya Ida bringing the idea to him.
 

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,902
Finished it yesterday.
Can't be surprised about Yoko Taro loving this, the themes are very similar to the NieR series and the final battle is just holy shit almost a bullet hell with how much shit is on screen, I thought I was going to kill my PS4 with it!

In general I liked it a lot, although I'm not completely blown away, still I am super glad it exist and I'm sure it's going to be into my top 5 of the year once we reach December.

Stuff I liked and I didn't like
+The story, themes and storytelling are just crazy ambitious
+I just love the Monkey Island-esque nature of the game mixed with the mystery-box structure
+Really liked that a lot of the protagonists had their own vibes and styles for their adventure
+Some characters are cool
+Visuals and music are *chef's kiss*
+I really liked Okino's ambiguous and fluid gender representation
+The Miyuki Inaba scene during 2nd Area Wave 10 was amazing, but I would have preferred if they kept the song for the actual final battle
+So. Much. Sci-fi.
+Large fonts made for a perfect bed-game
+Feels so good to launch a powerful attack and see massive amount of kaijus blowup
-While I like the aesthetics, I almost wish we'd gotten some close-ups and see some expressions, as there are many moments with characters crying or in disbelief which were hard to grasp with how it is
-Destruction mode was terrible for me as sometimes it made my eyes bleed
-I think the story is so strong and overwhelming that characters suffer from it a bit: I personally liked the "past" characters (426, Ida, Prof. Morimura, Dr. Morimura, Okino, Miyuki Inaba) more than the ones we play which felt really passive and just chasing stuff that already happened in the past, and in general I felt a lot of the 13 ones were kinda plain
-I don't know how I feel about the end being a massive "everyone lived happy forever and ever in the post-apocalypse"

Just beat the game. What a masterpiece in storytelling. I'm legitimately sad it's over.

I'm still kinda confused with the story, even after hours of reading about it in the mystery files and internet lol. But I think I'm close to getting it.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the story as this

So. In the late 2100s, humanity developed nanomachine tech. The tech got on the black market, the tech was faulty, the tech essentially wiped out humanity. 15 great minds survived and fled to a space colony.

There, they made a plan to revive humanity, project ark. Project arc would send probes out that were capable of A, producing the kaiju that would terraform compatible planets and B, host the clones of the 15 survivors. Countless probes were sent throughout the universe, to increase the chances of project ark being successful. While at the same time, leading to the possibility of infinite planets being terraformed and inhabited by the 15 clones. Infinite outcomes.

Project arc would have the clones go through a shared simulation, like the matrix, which they would stay in until they were 18, and then they'd be released into the newly terraformed planet with the knowledge of how to be human, through the events they experienced in the simulation.


But Shinonome (2188) became disgruntled with the actions of her co-survivors/humanity as a whole and sabotaged the project. She inserted the deimos code, which would lead to the destruction of the simulation, and the clones in real life. After this, the pods would regrow new clones, and start the simulation again, the "loop"

Clones who became semi aware of the truth, were able to escape to sector 0 before the next loop started. By doing so, they'd be able to grow into adulthood and live in the next loop. Ida and Ms Morimura did this. But by escaping to sector 0, their bodies in real life, on the pod would still be destroyed, but they'd be able to still exist within the simulation as a human AI essentially.

Our main characters beat the kaiju by making the simulation aware of the kaiju. Being aware of this, the simulation awakes them in real life, avoiding another loop. Thus, they are able to beat the simulation, and make it to the real world, where they start to rebuild.

The clones from previous loops, who became AI (BJ, Ida, 426, Professor Morimura) are essentially saved because our clones restart the loop to right before when the kaiju attacked. I think.

Where I'm real confused at, is with everything else lol

So, 426 figures some of this out in the previous loop, and escapes it, to the next loop, to influence events to make the new loop successful?

Morimura, also escaped from a previous loop, loses faith in the sentinels defeating the kaiju, so she wants to activate Aegis. Aegis will destroy the kaiju, but stop the loop process. Thus leading to everyone surviving, but living in a destroyed world?

Then I'm also confused about the construction of the sentinels. Okino says he designed them. Were they only in this loop? Or were the sentinels inserted in every loop/pod, to be created by Okino?

Thank, I've finished it yesterday and needed someone to lay out the plot to help me think over it.

Do we know what kills the 15 people on the colony? The nanomachines, lack of resources or them plotting against each other?
What's the deal with OG Yakushiji? There was a flashback where Juro Izumi rescues her on his dad request while wearing a space suit?
 

Frozen Viper

Member
Feb 7, 2019
279
Do we know what kills the 15 people on the colony? The nanomachines, lack of resources or them plotting against each other?
What's the deal with OG Yakushiji? There was a flashback where Juro Izumi rescues her on his dad request while wearing a space suit?

It's been a month, but I think I can answer this one. How it plays out is the survivors (15 people plus ??? others) all make it onto the colony ship as humanity is wiped out by the nanovirus. Yakushiji's father begs his military veteran buddy Juro to take his daughter who is not nanomachine infected, while he is, to ensure his daughter lives. Juro takes her in, and the dad probably dies in space.

Among the survivors now in space, Ei has infiltrated the ship and follows through on his contract to kill Morimura under the orders of Gouto, but also I got the feeling he really followed through to avenge all of humanity that was wiped out by her nanomachines. The bomb he sets off causes permanent damage to the ark, and causes the energy crisis, with the survivors squabbling over the precious little resources remaining. This leads to the shootout seen in Hijiyama's storyline. It's implied everyone dies in this shootout except for Ida and Shinonome.

Shinonome despaired and asked Ida to commit suicide alongside her, however Ida did not agree to it. His last words to her were horrible ones, and then he ended his own life, leaving Shinonome as the last remaining human, (Per a cut scene detailed by George Kamitani), at this point, Shinonome, disgusted with humanity, sabotages the project and leaves the log you see in Yuki's story, then dies. Then the Arks are automatically sent out from Earth with the DNA of the 15, as well as the Deimos Code.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,828
I have only one thing really bothering me :

Tetsuya Ida looks and sounds near identical to Renya Gouto.

This is never addressed or brought up by anybody.

And it's not just the english version because they very much sound identical in japanese as well (play their lines back to back in scenes they share).

I don't get the point ?

And 26 yo Tetsuya still looked identical and sounded identical to "Shu" so what the fuck happened in 6 years ?
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,997
Canada
I have only one thing really bothering me :

Tetsuya Ida looks and sounds near identical to Renya Gouto.

This is never addressed or brought up by anybody.

And it's not just the english version because they very much sound identical in japanese as well (play their lines back to back in scenes they share).

I don't get the point ?

And 26 yo Tetsuya still looked identical and sounded identical to "Shu" so what the fuck happened in 6 years ?
Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't older Ida gone through 2 loops that is why he is much older than the rest just like Morimura. I think he and Gouto are still separate people even with the similar sounding voices.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
Loved this game a lot. It's very plot heavy and I respect that it goes for the sheer amount of twists it does and still ends up with a coherent narrative. In terms of structuring and layout it's pretty damn genius. I also like the ways it plays with different sci-fi tropes in each story (Juro's story having the "you can't always trust what you see" dynamic, Ogata's time-loop story, or even Natsuno's ET-esque plot) and yet they all cohere together pretty cleanly by the end.

I have a sliiiiiight bone to pick though.

I won't lie, as a gay dude the reason I finally pulled the trigger on this game was hearing it has two gay characters. It's just so rare to hear that about a piece of Japanese media right now. And as a huge anime nerd I loved the idea of a gay romance being tied in with a well-reviewed anime-style plot.

But it's so damn frustrating to watch in real-time as it becomes increasingly clear the narrative doesn't quite know what to do with Hijiyama and Okino, and doesn't truly fathom how to tell a queer story without veering into a frustraing sense of "isn't this *weird*, isn't this so *strange*???".

For one thing, they pull the exact same thing Persona 4 did: they try to have this dynamic of "well he fell in love with a dude while thinking he was a girl, so is it *reaaaally* gay after all?". And it just screams this inability to write a story that comfortably supports a male-male relationship, so it plays these games nonstop with Hijiyama being in love with Okino's Douji appearance, which they constantly put back in play time and time again. And the worst thing is that Hijiyama's self-denial and questioning is actually kind of nice to see, because someone ostensibly raised in the 1940s would definitely have worries about being attracted to a man, but the game is simply never willing to stand up and assert wholeheartedly "hey these two guys are in love" even while it does that with EVERY other ship. I was so frustrated to see that after all the development of those characters during the epilogue where every other character has been together for years, they actually make a point to say that Hijiyama and Okino still aren't together and still playing the will-they-won't-they.

And I think there's also a potential angle of Okino potentially seeing themselves as a trans or non-binary person, which would be wonderful and great if it felt like the story had any clue what it actually wants to say about the character, but it so clearly doesn't. It just keeps switching back and forth, ending up saying not much at all about queer characters and the value of them and their relationships.

There's a single moment where I felt like they might nail it, when you see the original Hijiyama and the original Okino, as actual proud loving partners. And I loved that they committed to showing them that way. And I thought the narrative might truly bring it back around to show that the Hijiyama and Okino we as the player come to know would see love in each other in a similar way.

But they don't. And I know that's a relatively small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it is a real bummer as it reflects a larger issue I still have where Japanese media still seems to have more vague and wishy-washy takes on queer people than bold and affirming ones.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,556
Loved this game a lot. It's very plot heavy and I respect that it goes for the sheer amount of twists it does and still ends up with a coherent narrative. In terms of structuring and layout it's pretty damn genius. I also like the ways it plays with different sci-fi tropes in each story (Juro's story having the "you can't always trust what you see" dynamic, Ogata's time-loop story, or even Natsuno's ET-esque plot) and yet they all cohere together pretty cleanly by the end.

I have a sliiiiiight bone to pick though.

I won't lie, as a gay dude the reason I finally pulled the trigger on this game was hearing it has two gay characters. It's just so rare to hear that about a piece of Japanese media right now. And as a huge anime nerd I loved the idea of a gay romance being tied in with a well-reviewed anime-style plot.

But it's so damn frustrating to watch in real-time as it becomes increasingly clear the narrative doesn't quite know what to do with Hijiyama and Okino, and doesn't truly fathom how to tell a queer story without veering into a frustraing sense of "isn't this *weird*, isn't this so *strange*???".

For one thing, they pull the exact same thing Persona 4 did: they try to have this dynamic of "well he fell in love with a dude while thinking he was a girl, so is it *reaaaally* gay after all?". And it just screams this inability to write a story that comfortably supports a male-male relationship, so it plays these games nonstop with Hijiyama being in love with Okino's Douji appearance, which they constantly put back in play time and time again. And the worst thing is that Hijiyama's self-denial and questioning is actually kind of nice to see, because someone ostensibly raised in the 1940s would definitely have worries about being attracted to a man, but the game is simply never willing to stand up and assert wholeheartedly "hey these two guys are in love" even while it does that with EVERY other ship. I was so frustrated to see that after all the development of those characters during the epilogue where every other character has been together for years, they actually make a point to say that Hijiyama and Okino still aren't together and still playing the will-they-won't-they.

And I think there's also a potential angle of Okino potentially seeing themselves as a trans or non-binary person, which would be wonderful and great if it felt like the story had any clue what it actually wants to say about the character, but it so clearly doesn't. It just keeps switching back and forth, ending up saying not much at all about queer characters and the value of them and their relationships.

There's a single moment where I felt like they might nail it, when you see the original Hijiyama and the original Okino, as actual proud loving partners. And I loved that they committed to showing them that way. And I thought the narrative might truly bring it back around to show that the Hijiyama and Okino we as the player come to know would see love in each other in a similar way.

But they don't. And I know that's a relatively small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it is a real bummer as it reflects a larger issue I still have where Japanese media still seems to have more vague and wishy-washy takes on queer people than bold and affirming ones.

I agree with a lot of what you've said here regarding Okino and Hiijiyama's relationship. I feel with Hiijiyama a lot of his plotline is his wrestling with the fact he is realizing he is gay, but I think my big issue is how much Okino mocks his feelings throughout the game. The "will they won't they" aspect of it comes off as somewhat cruel in moments where Okino is literally forcing himself into Hiijayama's mind and is making fun of the fact he has feelings for him.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,997
Canada
I agree with a lot of what you've said here regarding Okino and Hiijiyama's relationship. I feel with Hiijiyama a lot of his plotline is his wrestling with the fact he is realizing he is gay, but I think my big issue is how much Okino mocks his feelings throughout the game. The "will they won't they" aspect of it comes off as somewhat cruel in moments where Okino is literally forcing himself into Hiijayama's mind and is making fun of the fact he has feelings for him.
Yeah the current Okino is quite cruel and toys too much with Hijiyama to the point I did not like. While the original 2188 adult Okino with adult Hijiyama shows a general care and affection for him even in the short conversation that is shown.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
I agree with a lot of what you've said here regarding Okino and Hiijiyama's relationship. I feel with Hiijiyama a lot of his plotline is his wrestling with the fact he is realizing he is gay, but I think my big issue is how much Okino mocks his feelings throughout the game. The "will they won't they" aspect of it comes off as somewhat cruel in moments where Okino is literally forcing himself into Hiijayama's mind and is making fun of the fact he has feelings for him.
Yeah absolutely, I feel like it would be one thing if they just showed Hijiyama's discomfort with his attraction to Okino, which is a compelling queer coming-of-age story arc I'm here for, but Okino's cruelty towards Hijiyama is really off putting. To an extent I feel like we never even get a strong message that Okino actually likes Hijiyama back, he just toys with Hijiyama constantly. The scene where Okino has Hijiyama tied up and is like "oh man I can see how much you like me by looking into your mind hah!" is especially uncomfortable. And it's doubly frustraing because it means the one gay story in the game is wrapped up in this weird sense of manipulation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,556
Yeah the current Okino is quite cruel and toys too much with Hijiyama to the point I did not like. While the original 2188 adult Okino with adult Hijiyama shows a general care and affection for him even in the short conversation that is shown.

And I think the troubling thing is that it is very possible that the current Okino will not end up like the 2188 Okino because the game establishes characters won't essentially end up like their future counterparts through Shu and Ida.

It's to a point where I genuinely feel so bad for Hiijiyama because him wrestling with those feelings plus the enforced stigma of being a gay man with a military background in the 1940's is so rough, and the person he has feelings for is constantly mocking, teasing and belittling him for them.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,828
Yeah absolutely, I feel like it would be one thing if they just showed Hijiyama's discomfort with his attraction to Okino, which is a compelling queer coming-of-age story arc I'm here for, but Okino's cruelty towards Hijiyama is really off putting. To an extent I feel like we never even get a strong message that Okino actually likes Hijiyama back, he just toys with Hijiyama constantly. The scene where Okino has Hijiyama tied up and is like "oh man I can see how much you like me by looking into your mind hah!" is especially uncomfortable. And it's doubly frustraing because it means the one gay story in the game is wrapped up in this weird sense of manipulation.

Have you finished the game ?

Because Okino definitely cares about him.

And the originals were not having any of the crossdressing stuff in it so no ambiguity there.

Keep in mind Hijiyama (clone) is from "1945" where old fashioned values would be prevalent. His original self removes that context.

As for Okino, he altered his personality by replacing it with an AI, so until he is free of that world he doesn't really get his human emotions back.
He is a lot friendlier to Hijiyama afterwards. And likewise his original self was caring and loving. And I know he teases him in the epilogue again but it's implied he hasn't for years.

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't older Ida gone through 2 loops that is why he is much older than the rest just like Morimura. I think he and Gouto are still separate people even with the similar sounding voices.

But Morimura looks like Morimura. And sounds like her.

Ida and Shu look nothing alike and sound nothing alike. But worse he looks and sounds like Gouto.

I just find it weird that nobody ever comments on it.

And Shinonome ends up dating Gouto who is a dead ringer for Ida anyway... How weird ?
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
Have you finished the game ?

Because Okino definitely cares about him.

And the originals were not having any of the crossdressing stuff in it so no ambiguity there.

Keep in mind Hijiyama (clone) is from "1945" where old fashioned values would be prevalent. His original self removes that context.

As for Okino, he altered his personality by replacing it with an AI, so until he is free of that world he doesn't really get his human emotions back.
He is a lot friendlier to Hijiyama afterwards. And likewise his original self was caring and loving. And I know he teases him in the epilogue again but it's implied he hasn't for years.
I have finished the game, yeah. And they do have some lines I appreciated where Okino shows some real affection to Hijiyama, I just wish it wasn't so consistently sandwiched between continued coyness-verging-on-mockery on Okino's part, even into the epilogue.

And yeah I'm certainly not discounting that the representation of the original versions of both is nicely direct (and the fact that it's one of the few explicit caring gay relationships I've seen in a game isn't lost on me), but while I'm heartened by the representation there, it's only in the original versions of those characters and showcased in only a small snippet of one cutscene. As others on here have talked about, it's clear that the protagonists of the game aren't necessarily destined to be the same people as the ones they were cloned after, and the Hijiyama and Okino we really focus on in the game are the ones I was far more invested in because they are part of the actual main cast.

I don't think the writers had any intention to imply any problematic behavior on the part of the relationship between the two, and the fact that their relationship is a prominent feature is nice to see, but my critique is mostly about how, as someone who was super eager to follow their story, I just think it's written with a degree of coyness, embarrassment, and ambiguity that is already so prevalent in queer-coded or explicitly queer relationships in anime that I found myself a little let down by it personally.

Taken on its own and in the scope of the story, Hijiyama and Okino's relationship is written well enough (and some of my favorite moments were in their storylines still), but in the context of representation for queer characters in a media landscape that already tires me out with its refusal to write many explicitly gay relationships, I just personally left the game's narrative feeling ambivalent and a bit disappointed about their approach.
 

Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,794
I thought the game could have done a lot more with queer identity and gender expression. I'm a straight male so I don't want to dismiss the value those within the LGBTQ+ community found in the characters, but I think the criticisms are fair and I agree with them. I also have quite a bit of dislike that most relationships changed between 2188 humans and their clones, but there's some kind of genetic disposition that apparently ensured the only gay characters were once again gay.

For a game that had a lot to say about a future of humanity it could have done better, and also been more interesting. Of course the game is chock full of so much already, and the fact that Kamitani did as well as he did with these themes is something of a miracle considering some of his past remarks/art...
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,828
I don't think they're meant to be gay as a one note thing.

In the japanese version Okino implies he's not into men, and Hijiyama is also into girls. (kinda like Hiori being attracted to Yuki)

I think they want to say those two love each other because they're meant to be. I know this is a naïve approach but it's definitely recurring in this game.
And not by incompetence, by choice.
And so the awkward will they won't they is maybe played a bit too much, but I thought the original selves scene was very touching. And you're supposed to just assume they belong together. And the much gentler side of Okino once he's out of the machine was clearly going that route. And so was Hijiyama admitting he loves him in the final battle.

Could they have done more ? Of course. I think it's because they wanted it as pay off, and the way they structured the game they probably didn't want to have it too early, which leads to your grievances.

But they did make these two some of the most compelling characters in the game IMO.

I'm straight so I'm not discounting any of your arguments regarding representation, just saying I thought it was one of the better stories in the game.
It was probably my favorite in fact, which I wasn't expecting because it seemed very tropey at first.

Like holy fuck Ei and Hiori is like 5 million years away from this.
 

Aerial51

Member
Apr 24, 2020
3,685
So after having finished the Game i gotta say it's really a masterpiece. I am not gonna lie, the ending turned out to be a bit too happy for me imo. After all the shit that happened and how unlikely everything was to not turn out bad, they really just punched their way to a happy ending. Along with the very unsubtle Adam & Eve Metaphor.

It's still and insanely well structured story and i loved that they included a wiki so you can confirm theories etc. It was this nice metagame in a way, that let's you keep guessing what the truths are.

I had a visceral reaction when it was revealed that they never travelled through time but that instead every sector was just different colony of sorts. I guessed that super early on, and being proven right 20 hours later felt soo good.

I am kinda amazed that a clusterfuck of a story like this didn't break down after all the sci-fi concepts it throws at you. The Story also reminded me a bit of Horizon Zero Dawn, which is one of my favourite Sci-Fi Stories in Gaming and this was that but so much further out out there lmao.
 
Jun 24, 2019
6,365
13 Sentinels is really good. I wouldn't place it as last year's goty but it's undoubtedly one of the most fascinating VNs ever made. Very engrossed with the plot and the numerous Sci-fi references, the rts battles do raise the immersion of the game's universe. If you liked 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim, I highly recommend checking out Virtue's Last Reward and 428: Shibuya Scramble.
 

Komii

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554
Just finished the game and i really loved it! Managing a comprehemsible narrative with 15 characters is an herculean task and i can't really believe they pulled it off, and I kinda wanna study how they made the format work.

I'm really impressed they actually went for the Enbi/Confused pan pairing for the endgame, i was afraid they'd kill Okino again or separate them somehow lol, i don't see why people say their relationship at the end was vague, to me it sounded like they'd settled years ago but Okino wanted to spice things up a bit... After all with his 1945 education Hijiyama is still used to being a prude lol. Very cute how they're the only pairing that doesn't get mixed up with the rest either xP
i still need some files to get the extra ending but vanillaware really did great apart from some old fanservicey drawings we know them for =_=
 

MZZ

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,226
Can finally enter this thread lol

This game got me saying "oh they're doing that scifi trope" every other scene from start to finish and I love it.

When I thought I figured it out it always twists it to something else. Really cool story. Havent read through the timeline yet but I love how It feels like a jigsaw puzzle I am doing in my mind when I was playing it.

I wonder what other battle systems did vanillaware thought of when developing this game.

I enjoyed the battle system and I thought was very unique. But I can imagine this game having an entirely different battle system If they had more time and budget.

Wouldve loved if there was a tactics version ala front mission or a 3rd person brawler/shooter armored core like action game version. Or maybe even action turn based like ff7r.
 

Lemony1984

Member
Jul 7, 2020
6,691
13 Sentinels is really good. I wouldn't place it as last year's goty but it's undoubtedly one of the most fascinating VNs ever made. Very engrossed with the plot and the numerous Sci-fi references, the rts battles do raise the immersion of the game's universe. If you liked 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim, I highly recommend checking out Virtue's Last Reward and 428: Shibuya Scramble.

Just want to second that everyone in this thread should play 428: Shibuya Scramble
 
Oct 28, 2017
793

It's a small extra scene but it does spoil the entire ending and the whole premise of the game.

It's a small scene that shows Kaiju attacking the city again only this time Natsuno and Ogata are in the opening scene. The implication is that alternate versions of the entire plot of 13 sentinels are occurring all across the universe.


You know it's super nit picky but I really want to play 428 Shibuya but when I tried it the text speed made it painful to play through. I'm sure the game is good but it was hard to enjoy a game about reading when the actual act of reading was made so unpleasant.