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Question, so what exactly happened to the plot-point of Natsuno carrying the key and being the "commander" of the D-forces? Was that fixed when Tamao-426 shot her with the magical gun?
I have a few questions
1. Was Chihiro Miura, just pretending to be Miura's sister or did she actually not have any memories of her past life until Gouto implatanted them?
2. Where was 1945 Tamao doing the entire game? Was she just chilling in the destroyed sector 1?
3. Is 1985 Tamao (Juro's grandmother who we never see) just another AI?
I don't think this was ever "fixed". Her being the commander is what calls the Kaiju that they fight at the end of the game.
1. Was Chihiro Miura, just pretending to be Miura's sister or did she actually not have any memories of her past life until Gouto implatanted them?
2. Where was 1945 Tamao doing the entire game? Was she just chilling in the destroyed sector 1?
3. Is 1985 Tamao (Juro's grandmother who we never see) just another AI?
I don't think this was ever "fixed". Her being the commander is what calls the Kaiju that they fight at the end of the game.
1. Ms Morimura sealed her memories shortly after creating her, Gouto unsealed those memories after taking her.
2. No, she 'died' and Universal Control took her.
3. Yes, she's the Tamao Android that Tetsuya Ida created
Wait really? Did Juro or anyone else never question why his grandmother was the same age as him lol? Or did he never actually "meet" her outside of fabricated memories?
3 is actually different. Tamao-bot is a looper from last loop, Grandma Tamao is perpetually "out of town" because when two instances of the same person are in a sector, Universal Control takes an instance back and creates an in-universe reason for why they're not around.
I don't think he has ever seen his 'grandmother', probably just some memory fuckery that the Tamao-Android gave him as his new identity.
^Yeah sorry for the confusion, this is what I mean.
The game has some important plot points that get weirdly glazed over. For instance, the Sentinels being infected by DD-426 gets resolved off screen in a convoluted manner and you only learn how through the mystery files. Then there's the matter of Minami holding the D-Code key which doesn't matter in the end and makes Ogata's route kind of pointless. Also how did both Sekigahara and Shinonome get their minds stabilized by the end?
I really don't know how to feel about Okino, since he almost squarely falls into the "trans coded character that is really just a feminine gay man" trope. I imagine the localization team attempted to smooth out that unfortunate aspect of Okino's character, but not much they apparently could do about Okino adopting a female body while they are visiting the simulation in the epilogue. WTF is even the point of that? It's not like that would change anything outside the simulation, just another way for him to tease Hijiyama and try to woo him. To me it seems like the localization tries to paint Okino as non-binary but they couldn't fix the fundamental problem. It doesn't help that Okino is probably the least developed character and Hijiyama's route is really weak.
Just finished the game and the ending bothered me for a number of reasons, especially this. I'm really curious how the localization for that scene differs from the Japanese script.
I really don't know how to feel about Okino, since he almost squarely falls into the "trans coded character that is really just a feminine gay man" trope. I imagine the localization team attempted to smooth out that unfortunate aspect of Okino's character, but not much they apparently could do about Okino adopting a female body while they are visiting the simulation in the epilogue. WTF is even the point of that? It's not like that would change anything outside the simulation, just another way for him to tease Hijiyama and try to woo him. To me it seems like the localization tries to paint Okino as non-binary but they couldn't fix the fundamental problem. It doesn't help that Okino is probably the least developed character and Hijiyama's route is really weak.
My understanding is that there's no fixing it, both Sekigahara and Shinonome eventually succumb to the effects of DD-426. Sekigarahara's story picked up after losing his memories while Shinonome ends with losing hers.
Regarding Okino himself, I can see how he can fall into some unfortunate tropes regarding trans characters. My own reading of his character is that he's nonbinary. While he doesn't mind being referred to with masculine pronouns, he also seems equally comfortable presenting as both masculine and feminine. There's nonbinary people out there who don't mind being referred to with gendered pronouns; while I prefer They/Them, I don't mind being referred to as She/Her for example. It would have been nice to have seen this aspect of Okino explored more throughout the game, but I guess I was just thankful enough that the game didn't really have any Persona-style moments.
Regarding the ending, it seems ambiguous whether Okino is telling the truth or is just teasing Hijiyama. I don't think it would be very out of character for him to give his virtual self a female body just for fun. My biggest criticism of the scene is still how ridiculous it is for Hijiyama to STILL not be able to express his feelings for Okino five years after the events of the game have passed. We've already seen how they clearly love each other by that point, so why hasn't there been any progress? I guess with how flirty Okino is towards him in the scene (even dragging him off for a date at the end), the implication is supposed to be that they WILL get together... but it feels unsatisfying compared to what the other characters got.
You're right for bringing up that pronouns != gender identity, and since I wasn't clear I read him as non-binary too. I don't find him to be super egregious (like Luka from Steins;Gate) but I think that's thanks to the localization smoothing things out as much as they could. Oh yeah, I definitely agree that them not clearly being a couple yet in the epilogue is total bullshit. Especially given how overwhelmingly heteronormative the epilogue is. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it's clearer he is just teasing Hijiyama in the Japanese script about his virtual body.
Speaking of heteronormativity, the script teasing Fuyusaka as bi after one of the battles annoys me greatly.
Yup i agree with all that that was said... bullshit that after 5 years it's not clearcut...
At least it's clear they love each other, even just with the 2188 version, which is always nice to see in a japanese game, but still, was annoying to see it done like that!
Also it's a small nitpick, but the devs shouldn't have wrote the story as it's only japanese people... like i know the virus wiped out everyone, but you would think there's more than just one country that was able to have a colony in space and have candidates for the project
at least, they can now rename the new planet "japan" and be a weeb paradise forever, lol
At least it's clear they love each other, even just with the 2188 version, which is always nice to see in a japanese game, but still, was annoying to see it done like that!
Also it's a small nitpick, but the devs shouldn't have wrote the story as it's only japanese people... like i know the virus wiped out everyone, but you would think there's more than just one country that was able to have a colony in space and have candidates for the project
at least, they can now rename the new planet "japan" and be a weeb paradise forever, lol
Objectively Juro and Megumi were the worst couple
But how to do people feel about the epilouge ending on 426 Izumi and Chihiro from 2 loops back? Their relationship is for sure the most complicated to follow and it wasnt until super late(at least in my playthru) that you learn of 426's true motives, up until then he is portrayed as one of if not the biggest antognist.
Also the Shiba twist is cool because if you're paying attention you can notice it beforehand but i would have loved if they had taken it further. like if juro's route had like 20 dead end were Shiba would just constantly fuck with him.
But how to do people feel about the epilouge ending on 426 Izumi and Chihiro from 2 loops back? Their relationship is for sure the most complicated to follow and it wasnt until super late(at least in my playthru) that you learn of 426's true motives, up until then he is portrayed as one of if not the biggest antognist.
Also the Shiba twist is cool because if you're paying attention you can notice it beforehand but i would have loved if they had taken it further. like if juro's route had like 20 dead end were Shiba would just constantly fuck with him.
The most important scene in the Epilogue, IMO, because it sells that the AI characters are real characters with their own lives that they will get to live out. Without that scene I think people would get more pissed off at everything being part of a simulation.
One thing that I think a lot of post-Ghost in the Shell Japanese works of sci-fi do quite well is blur the line between "real" and "artificial" life, and 13 Sentinels plays with this concept a lot as well. Our lives and identity are wholly dependent on our memories, which is to say that if those memories could be erased or altered it'd completely change who we are in the same way that an AI is completely defined by its data/memory. The line gets even blurrier in these far-flung future settings when humanity has reached a point where it can create simulations that are indistinguishable from reality thanks to robust AI, sensory simulation, etc.
OP
OP
I am a huge sucker for when games rearrange their main theme for the final boss theme, so this one hits all the spots for me. Looking back, it would've been nice if the game forces the player to use all the characters, but the "desperate last stand" did already come through pretty well, so I am fine with it.
In my opnion it's especially the case with Iori where it's meant to be a homage to shoujo manga, but the game simply doesn't have the legroom for it.
You know thinking about it the two 'tough guys' in the story got kind of screwed out of major relevance to the main story. Nenjis main campaign entirely relied on finding out a plot point that ultimately didn't matter in the end even if the time loop inception setup was cool.
And Hijiyama was even more actively screwed. He had a similar premise to Miura with the past, except Miuras plot brought arguably some of the biggest revelations near the start and a lot of weird plot points near the end with the clone aspect.
Hijiyama on the other hand was just quite literally a lackey, his story sections were honestly the most bothersome for me to do particularly with the cat and coin aspect and they relied a little too much on the yakisoba pan joke.
Both Nenji and Hijiyama were essentially the love interests of characters that had more importance to the overall plotline (even if one was just an alternate version of a more plot crucial version of her)
And Hijiyama was even more actively screwed. He had a similar premise to Miura with the past, except Miuras plot brought arguably some of the biggest revelations near the start and a lot of weird plot points near the end with the clone aspect.
Hijiyama on the other hand was just quite literally a lackey, his story sections were honestly the most bothersome for me to do particularly with the cat and coin aspect and they relied a little too much on the yakisoba pan joke.
Both Nenji and Hijiyama were essentially the love interests of characters that had more importance to the overall plotline (even if one was just an alternate version of a more plot crucial version of her)
I need to check with you guys with the sequence of events leading up to the current loop. Is this correct?
2 Loops Ago
1 Loop Ago
Current Loop
The three points in red are the ones I'm not sure about. Did Chihiro (2LA) killed Juro (2LA) ? I assumed not, so was that Juro (2LA) in the current loop that Chihiro killed at the bridge? The way they both behaved makes it seem like they retained their memories up till now.
Alternatively, was the person Ida (1LA) met on the bridge an AI construct of Chihiro (2LA) ? That would explain why Iori has compatibility because she's not a clone but the actual Chihiro of this loop?
2 Loops Ago
- Okino (2LA), Juro (2LA) and Chihiro (2LA) found the UFO during the the kaiju invasion
- Juro (2LA) and Chihiro (2LA) escaped via Sector 0 to the next loop, retaining their memories. Okino (2LA) died saving them.
1 Loop Ago
- Juro (2LA) and Chihiro (2LA) bombed the factories and killed the scientists to try to stop Shikishima from developing the deimos
- Juro (2LA) was captured and was now labelled Prison 426
- The Type-98 biped were created here
- Chihiro (2LA) saved Ida (1LA) and Tomi (1LA)
- Juro (2LA) somehow escaped and killed most the compatible pilots but was stopped/killed?? by Chihiro (2LA)
- The final battle was lost, Ida (1LA) escaped to the next loop while Chihiro (2LA) died.
Current Loop
- Ida (1LA) met with Chihiro at the bridge
- Tomi (1LA) and the other pilots (1LA) died while making the jump through the Gate.
- Chihiro killed Juro (2LA)???
- Ida (1LA) turned Tomi (1LA) and the other dead pilots (1LA) into AIs for the Sentinels
- Chihiro created two clones of herself, Iori Fuyusaka??? and Chihiro Miura
The three points in red are the ones I'm not sure about. Did Chihiro (2LA) killed Juro (2LA) ? I assumed not, so was that Juro (2LA) in the current loop that Chihiro killed at the bridge? The way they both behaved makes it seem like they retained their memories up till now.
Alternatively, was the person Ida (1LA) met on the bridge an AI construct of Chihiro (2LA) ? That would explain why Iori has compatibility because she's not a clone but the actual Chihiro of this loop?
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So in order of your red questions
1. Actually, I don't think Chihiro (2LA) kills Juro (2LA) 1 loop ago. You see her shoot him in event 15, in which Ida survives his shot, then Chihiro shows up and shoots Juro. I actually started to answer this in the affirmative, but I realized in order to backup his memories to sector 0 and also be "framed" for killing Kisaragi, Tamao, Hijiyama, and Miura (1LA) he must've survived. So Ida/Kisaragi-bot reveals to Chihiro that these four weren't killed directly by Juro, but rather that he was uploading them all to Sector 0 at the final battle when an explosion happened from the battle. This is why only their personalities are intact and they're not Universal Control projections, but instead androids. This means after apprehending Juro, they let him survive, and presumably this is when he discovered that killing the compatible was a worthless exercise. It's also possible this is when he changed his plan to utilizing DD-426 maybe? At the very least maybe with the final battle progressing he decided it was pointless to keep killing the compatibles and so attempted to back them up.
As an aside about all this, it's really weird that Kisaragi-bot is okay with Ida's treatment of Juro/426-bot, as even though he killed some of her friends they'd obviously made enough amends at least that they had tried to escape together. But she doesn't bat an eye at Ida saying he'll delete him.
2. Yes, Chihiro (2LA) kills Juro (2LA) in the Current Loop, as seen in Event 19. He's brought back as an Android a few scenes later and starts his adventure of going from Juro-bot to Kisaragi-bot to Tamao-bot to Juro Kurabe's nanomachines. Now, things are a little wacky here with Chihiro, and that's because at the end of the last loop, she was able to send Ida (1LA) to Sector 0 for backup in the Type-98, and presumably Juro and the others used the UFO just as it was being reached by the Deimos. But Chihiro didn't get backed up, so when the current loop started, Ida (1LA) met Chihiro (2LA) on the bridge in 2089... but this Chihiro only had the memories intact from her first backup to Sector 0. So Chihiro Morimura is a construct from Universal Control that has memories of 2LA but not 1LA.
3. So Iori Fuyusaka was taken from her place in the 2100s to the 1980s by Chihiro Morimura and Ida, as well as Shu Amiguchi. These two are administered NM: A8076 ie the memories of Chihiro and Ida. Chihiro is planning to take over Iori Fuyusaka at age 18 to regain her compatibility, but then realizes with another loop not possible that she'd rather let Iori Fuyusaka be her own person. The clone of her placed in the 1940s is, indeed, a clone. However, Chihiro Morimura (2LA), silly girl that she is, somehow accidentally created this clone with the memories of Chihiro Morimura (2188). Her memories were sealed until Gouto unsealed them, and this is the first time Chihiro Morimura (2188) gets to see how very very wrong her Project Ark has been going.
...phew! I shouldn't have written that all on my phone, sorry if there's errors lol.
I think If you can wrap your head aroundeverything that happened between "One Loop Ago" and "Current Loop", Kingdom Hearts would be NOTHING in comparison lol.
Agree, it makes sense that Juro (2LA) survived to back up his data into Sector 0 before jumping into the "Current Loop".
Wasn't DD-426 created by Ida (1LA) to sabotage the Sentinels? I know from the mystery files he did it to speed up the destruction of the "Current Loop" so he can try again with Tomi (1LA) in the next loop. But yeah something here happened that Juro (2LA) switched his plan to unlocking the full potential of the Deimos Code.
We're not sure what happened with Juro (2LA) and the others after killing the pilot candidates and escaping into the "Current Loop". For all we know they were acting separately.
AHHHH okok, this makes sense now.
Chihiro (2LA) was on that bridge and she's a projection just like Ida (1LA) and Juro (2LA). That would explain why she was speaking with the memories and feelings of (2LA).
....Man, what do we call her? Chihiro (2LA - 1LA) XD ?!
Yup okay this all makes sense now. Iori is the "Current Loop" incarnation of Chihiro Morimura. Where as the clone is Chihiro Miura.
Agree, it makes sense that Juro (2LA) survived to back up his data into Sector 0 before jumping into the "Current Loop".
Wasn't DD-426 created by Ida (1LA) to sabotage the Sentinels? I know from the mystery files he did it to speed up the destruction of the "Current Loop" so he can try again with Tomi (1LA) in the next loop. But yeah something here happened that Juro (2LA) switched his plan to unlocking the full potential of the Deimos Code.
We're not sure what happened with Juro (2LA) and the others after killing the pilot candidates and escaping into the "Current Loop". For all we know they were acting separately.
AHHHH okok, this makes sense now.
Chihiro (2LA) was on that bridge and she's a projection just like Ida (1LA) and Juro (2LA). That would explain why she was speaking with the memories and feelings of (2LA).
....Man, what do we call her? Chihiro (2LA - 1LA) XD ?!
Yup okay this all makes sense now. Iori is the "Current Loop" incarnation of Chihiro Morimura. Where as the clone is Chihiro Miura.
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DD-426 was used by Ida, but when 426-bot is being interrogated by Ida he points out that he's obviously been brought back several times before, and he's even learned of how to separate the Deimos code from him (which is the function of DD-426). I guess I don't know if he created it (but that name is some bullshit if it's not related to him), but he's aware it is dangerous in some capacity so he knows of its effects supposedly.
Not 100% sure what you mean by this though:
"We're not sure what happened with Juro (2LA) and the others after killing the pilot candidates and escaping into the "Current Loop". For all we know they were acting separately."
We mostly are, I believe? Or do you mean in between the compatible killings but before their (mostly failed) retreat into the Current Loop? In which case, yeah, I don't think there's any context of clues I've found to explain how they essentially ended up working together after he had already killed several of their companions. But if you mean what they did after their arrival/revivals into the Current Loop I think we've got a pretty good idea of what happens.
Edit: I really need to go to sleep lol but here is my head canon on what happened.
Juro discovers or creates DD-426, an attempt to separate the Deimos Code from all compatible, and prevent the Deimos being summoned/created. This is not only a dangerous method, since it erases their memories and potentially kills them if they spend an excessive amount of time in their Type-98s (speculation, but a safe guess they act like Sentinels), plus it's also a slow method that involves finding all compatible and infecting them with time for the virus to run its course before the Deimos are summoned. Since this obviously fails or he didn't even attempt it, we see the city in ruins, with Izumi killing the pilots. He's doing this perhaps in a desperate attempt to cease the onslaught of Kaiju? After he's incapacitated, he is left to his own devices in the midst of armageddon, left for dead, and awakes, able to escape either through a 98 or the UFO.
Kisaragi-bot explicitly stated, though, that she and the others attempted to shift in the Type-98 when there was an explosion. So I think they likely died of their own accord while shifting, and 426 just escaped separately. So I had that bit wrong.
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Wouldn't be the first time he pinned shit onto Juro (2LA). I went back to watch the flashback, the only thing revealed of what Ida (1LA) got out of Juro (2LA) was on how to interrupt the D-Forces production.
So yeah, I think he created DD-426 and gave it that name to make it easy to pin it on Juro (2LA).
To specify I mean between [Killing the compatibles one loop ago] and [Killed by Chihiro on the bridge in current loop].
There's a big gap in details of what Juro (2LA) was doing. He didn't appear in any of the cutscenes.
Oh I spent forever editing my previous post where I caught at least one thing I got wrong and helped me inform my idea of how Juro and the dead kids ended up in sector 0 after last loop.
You're right he says he's learned how to interrupt d-force production (and that the Deimos code can be very dangerous), but to the best of the knowledge I can gather that refers to the fact that a commander with the control key isn't just summoning the Deimos, but they also are creating them in the sector 1 automated factories. So if Ida has learned of a way to interrupt production, the only way that makes sense is if he's learned of a way to sever the link between the control key and the factory. However, I do like the idea that Ida named the virus after Juro Izumi/426, since you're right that's a very Ida thing to do. And at the very minimum the code would've been based off this base knowledge he obtained from Juro, even if Ida did create the code himself in its entirety.
Yeah, for Juro specifically we really have no idea what he was up to I guess. The mystery file for 426 says he had previously been researching ways to download memories from the innerlocitor and how to get into the production line of the Deimos Code... We could assume he had been doing that work without Morimura, and therefore after their parting of ways, since she doesn't seem to be aware of DD-426 when it's first triggered (edit: duh, she wouldn't have memories even if they'd done that together since she lacks her memories from 1LA). And while she does work with injecting memories I don't know that's the same thing as his description of downloading memories from the innerlocitor. I feel like the fact that it is under this specific entry (426, as opposed to Juro Izumi (2LA) or whatever) that it mentions interrupting production (dd-426), and researching memories being downloaded from innerlocitors (either in a misguided attempt to "rescue" his Chihiro Morimura who had lost her memories from last loop, or even as a method of offsetting the memory loss of DD426, much like how Okino was able to use DD426 on himself but essentially stay himself through injecting his memories into his nanomachines) suggests a pretty strong link to him being the creator of DD-426 as well, as well as suggesting some of what he was up to in those 8 years.
Despite my previously written theory, I guess you could just as well suppose that Juro started with killing the kids, then in the next loop used his time to find a more humane way of severing the Deimos Code. He came up with DD-426, but found it would ultimately be an inefficient method to his means, plus it had its own drawbacks. While researching all this he found out about the videogame upgrades to the sentinels (though from his working perspective, I guess he might have assumed they were still Type-98s? Not sure why he would know about the sentinels until after he became an android), and perhaps decided giving them the capability to win against the Deimos was more worthwhile than performing another Loop.
That's pretty much all conjecture though. And I'm losing my train of thought all over the place, I need to go to bed lol. I might scrounge over it some more later for more answers as I do love this game though!
You're definitely right that they got some of the weakest routes, though I'd say Hijiyama's is the worst since Ogata had some interesting scenes even if they didn't mean much in the end. The loop and puzzles for Hijiyama feels really half-baked.
Did anyone else happen to lookup DD-426 on Google and see it is the designation for a US destroyer that was involved in WWII? Though it wasn't part of the Asiatic-Pacific Theater, so probably just be a coincidence.
Many of the routes seem to be heavily inspired by other franchises like how Ogata is groundhog's day, Sekigahara is like Bourne Identiy, Natsuno w/ ET. Way I see it Hijiyama is basically a romantic comedy since it seems the romance plot is the lion's share of the actual action time for Hijiyama. I kinda felt the same way about Iori's route, I mean her past selves are some of the most interesting characters in the game while her route is just a straight up shoujo plot.
Ogata is Source Code, not Groundhog Day. Like, literally, the plot of Source Code. Reliving a brief moment on a train before an attack to figure out some hidden information and slowly gaining a glimpse into what is actually happening.
The Movies, Manga and Anime that Inspired 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim
Sekigahara - Total Recall , Solaris (1972) , The Outer Limits "Demon with a Glass Hand"
Ogata - Source Code (A 2011 American science fiction movie in which a US Army captain is sent into a simulation of a train bombing with a mission to find the bomber, and has to retry each time he fails. )
Hijiyama - Tottemo Hijikata-kun ( A 1983-1984 comedy manga series following tough but compassionate exchange student Hijikata and his misadventures in school alongside the seemingly gentle but actually equally tough Okita.)
Fuyusaka - Tokimeki Tonight ( A 1982-1994 manga series primarily about romance and featuring supernatural elements, such as the first protagonist being the daughter of a vampire and werewolf with shapeshifting powers. Though no influences from the series are immediately apparent in 13 Sentinels, Kamitani has stated that the way he handled the romance in Fuyusaka's story was inspired by it. )
The Movies, Manga and Anime that Inspired 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim
We take a look at the movies and other media that served as inspiration for 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim creator George Kamitani in this article.
www.frontlinejp.net
Stop!! Hibari-kun! is the other big influence for Hijiyama and Okino.Sekigahara - Total Recall , Solaris (1972) , The Outer Limits "Demon with a Glass Hand"
Ogata - Source Code (A 2011 American science fiction movie in which a US Army captain is sent into a simulation of a train bombing with a mission to find the bomber, and has to retry each time he fails. )
Hijiyama - Tottemo Hijikata-kun ( A 1983-1984 comedy manga series following tough but compassionate exchange student Hijikata and his misadventures in school alongside the seemingly gentle but actually equally tough Okita.)
Fuyusaka - Tokimeki Tonight ( A 1982-1994 manga series primarily about romance and featuring supernatural elements, such as the first protagonist being the daughter of a vampire and werewolf with shapeshifting powers. Though no influences from the series are immediately apparent in 13 Sentinels, Kamitani has stated that the way he handled the romance in Fuyusaka's story was inspired by it. )
The Movies, Manga and Anime that Inspired 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim
We take a look at the movies and other media that served as inspiration for 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim creator George Kamitani in this article.
There are like three shojo manga references for Hijiyama and Okino story lmao
EDIT: scratch that, "Igano Kabamaru" isn't a shojo manga
How did you guys feel about the final twist (or second-to-final if you've seen the extra post-credit scene in the event viewer)? I personally feel like it cheapened some of the later reveals about the sectors / the 2188 story parts. Still liked it overall, but would much have preferred for that last twist to have not been there.
You mean the twist that they're in virtual reality? I'm perfectly fine with it. The ideology of the game clearly shows lived experiences and empathetic individuals are just as valid as organic or real experiences. Humanity was ultimately about the resolve of the individuals who could overcome the odds for their survival, that it happened in a digital landscape doesn't diminish their strength or experiences. Plus it's not like they used the twist as some kind of deus ex machina, it's literally just one more layer on top of the reveal that they were in sectors modeled to resemble the Earth they thought they were from. Their world still had consistent rulesets and it's not like any of them became Neo/The One, able to exploit it.
Then when you consider how much sense it makes in the context of their innerlociters, their biometric metrics giving them access to higher functions while previous loop incarnations lost access, their nudity in the sentinel "cockpits", the way Inaba/Fluffy/Shiba are able to digitally project into the world, etc. These aspects of the story really make the most sense with the reveal that it's a digital world.
Plus, the biggest aspect of the game is the characters needing to upgrade their leveling capabilities by obtaining experience from defeated enemies, giving them the ability to ultimately hold off the Deimos invasion until they could activate Project Aegis and inform Universal Control that the software was corrupted so they could be released from the simulation... I mean, none of this would make sense in any context but it being virtual reality.
Early on in the game I thought it was juggling too much and the only way to answer all the questions of the game was by it being a simulation. Seemed kind of weak. Then as I started to piece together the pieces of the interstellar project, the different sectors, etc I realized I had been wrong. That in the end it was a simulation was honestly brilliant. They'd given me enough information I had dismissed the obvious answer in favor of the interstellar developments, but then in the end it's a combination of both these things that really only work together that sells it.
The problem I have isn't that the virtual simulation doesn't make sense when you're looking at the story as a whole, the problem I have is that it makes the middle parts of the story make less sense to me.
Like I cannot wrap my head around why there would be a 2nd layer simulation in the form of the colony spaceship in the VR simulation? What was the point of that?
There wasn't a second layer of simulation. The colony spaceship that you see in the logs was real. You're seeing communication logs from the 2188 versions of these characters from that very real space colony during the development of Project Ark during the last throes of humanity's existence. The only simulation was the one that the present-day characters were experiencing in their pods since the day they were born, from which they were released at the end of the game to start life anew on a planet that one of Project Ark's probes had found and succeeded in terraforming.
The events of this game (the characters living out their first 16 years of life in the simulation via the growth pods) are actually happening over 20 million years after 2188 when that space colony was around. It took that long for one of the probes to find a suitable planet for terraforming in the vast expanse of space.
And then once the terraforming was complete, the simulation and clone growth in the pods kicked off. But unfortunately for this rag-tag group of kids 2188 Shinonome's little code injection called for kaiju to invade every 16 years to reset the simulation from scratch before they could ever be released from their pods as planned at the age of 18. So they were all stuck in a loop of being broken down and regrown inside their pods for somewhere in the neighborhood of thousands of years (~300 loops) before finally breaking free during the events of the game.
I'm aware that there was an actual colony ship in 2188. What I'm talking about how the reveal that they're not actually time traveling is already presented as a "we're in a simulation" type reveal i.e. they're on a space ship experiencing simulated time periods in part to ensure humanity's survival, so when they do it again later with Okino just dropping it cold like "Hey Hijiyama, we're in VR inside growing pods, no time for questions". It's like... just repeating the same twist, but also undermining the previous twists and a lot of the weird explanations and plot contrivances (like the story really heavily pretends to be a time travel story earlier, but if it's all VR, why couldn't it have just been a time travel simulation)?
I don't recall the game tipping its hand earlier on about everything being a simulation. As far as I can recall, the reveal about midway (depending on the order you play in) is that they aren't time traveling but rather teleporting between sectors. I definitely don't recall them saying anything to the effect of being part of a simulation until near the very end when Okino tells Hijiyama.
It's something that I love about the game, actually. They keep peeling back the layers on what at first seems to be pure sci-fi (time travel), then it's actually just slightly more plausible but still hard sci-fi (teleportation), and then finally it's like, "Nah, transmission of matter and time travel are not possible. This is happening in a simulation."
EDIT: If you're referring to the log showing a conversation between 2188 Miura and Tamao about constructing the "simulated" time periods in the form of sectors, then at the time I encountered that scene I thought that they meant they were physically constructing these sectors. I think that was the intention of the scene, but maybe you read it differently and accidentally stumbled upon the truth.
After the sector reveal, I started thinking it was a simulation, but not a VR one, instead a physical simulation aboard a spaceship or on a facility on the planet surface. Especially because of the notion of "loops", after finding out it's not time traveling.
Amiguchi's story pushed me further in this belief, because he leaves the "simulation" I.e. the 1985 city and enter a giant structure (by the tunnel) and space (by flying up in his sentinel).
Id be interested at the order of characters you take vs how you experience the kind of perception altering twists in the story in general
I think the order for me was
1. Its not time travel(pretty sure thats the first one most people get)
2. Simualtion(i did shu story early and as someone said above it kind of get you thinking but obviusly i had no idea what the simulation would be for or how it worked)
3 The Loop
4. Clones/All the memory manipulation shennanigans
5. Actually understanding what the loop/simulation is for.
I think the order for me was
1. Its not time travel(pretty sure thats the first one most people get)
2. Simualtion(i did shu story early and as someone said above it kind of get you thinking but obviusly i had no idea what the simulation would be for or how it worked)
3 The Loop
4. Clones/All the memory manipulation shennanigans
5. Actually understanding what the loop/simulation is for.
There is no second layer simulation, there really is a command ship that circles the planet, and it communicates with the facility that has been built on said planet, hosting the characters in their pods.
Edit: realize how you said "colony spaceship" - there is no colony spaceship. That only existed in 2188 on earth.
This is working backwards. The story doesn't pretend to be a time travel story, so they should have just made time travel possible in the simulation. The characters assume it's time travel because they don't have enough information independently to understand that it isn't. When they reveal that they are in a VR simulation, it isn't repeating a twist, it's clarifying information that has always been true, but not presented yet.
I'm just not sure what you think it undermines. The simulation was still built with sets of consistent rules that behave believably like a real world. It's not like nothing they did mattered. Their experiences were lived, they overcame the simulation being interfered with and were able to escape. If they had not done the actions they all did, they would have been destroyed in the simulation, and the facility would have broken in the near future since it isn't supposed to repeat the process for 5,000 years.
It doesn't diminish anything Shu Amiguchi discovers either. We know that the world isn't modeled outside of the town, and that's consistent with the fact that it is a VR simulation with limited resources to developing a world (with built in protections from Universal Control if anyone does find this out). Shu didn't go to "space", he even points out how he only flew 2,000 meters up. That's just another wall like the ones on the ground, and outside it it's just a simulated space, because there's no point in rendering accurately 2,000 meters in the air when no one is ever intended to see it.
I was pretty much totally clueless for the entire game until I Shu's route. Like not even the review, when I read the title which was basically "world within 30km" or something like that the whole simulation thing kicked in. And the moment I thought this was a simulation the time travel being actually just warping between different simulation points kicked in as well. Still think that ride into the void was the best holy shit reveal in the whole game.
I never thought it was a virtual simulation until the very end.
My prediction was they were all living in a space colony that is build to replicate the different time eras.
You can imagine how confused I was about what Universal Control can actually do when it transported Miwako and Tamao
EDIT: the biggest thing I didn't predict was how huge the time scale is. I thought we were in 2188 or 2200s
My prediction was they were all living in a space colony that is build to replicate the different time eras.
You can imagine how confused I was about what Universal Control can actually do when it transported Miwako and Tamao
EDIT: the biggest thing I didn't predict was how huge the time scale is. I thought we were in 2188 or 2200s
i liked my route where i literally just started at Juro and kept going right one by one until I maxed them all out, did all combats in a chapter/map, and returned to max out all characters available with what I gained from the full combat chapter.
For me I thought the actual time jump between 2188 and when they awake on the new planet would be maybe 5,000 to 10,000 years tops. Not millions.
One of the coolest things about the game is it's actually somewhat grounded, despite the mechas/nanomachines etc. I don't know anything about science so feel free to correct me, but one example is how the game straight up said time travel isn't even possible. Another would be that like Tamao2188 says, the nearest viable planet would have been like 7 light years away, and unless you have FTL travel and or exceptional luck in getting a viable planet at the closest destination, you're going to be looking for quite a while.
I'm sorry, but this isn't right. It isn't just the characters assuming that it's time travel, it is the game itself implying it through the time travel animation (the spinning clock), and the mystery files outright saying it's time travel, until it suddenly isn't.
But again, I'm not arguing about the validity of the VR plot point in general, I already said that it makes sense in context of the whole, I'm talking about how the VR plot as a "story device" by the developers makes the earlier story devices less impactful to me, cheapening the story a bit for me :/ It just made the whole thing a little less interesting to me.
I did Juro, Iori, Megumi and Natsuno first. Once I hit a gate I switched to another character.
Overall I tried to progress everyone at the same time (from 50% -> 80% -> 100%) and doing the "gatekeeper" character last, which always seems to be Natsuno or Yuki.
Which makes sense in hindsight- it would realistically take millions of years for non-Faster Than Light speed vehicles to reach our nearest star.
You can handwave the Mecha parts as being part of the video game simulation, Okino even mock the idea of any sane person getting into a 35m robot.
(Which I resent that by the way, Okino.)
The most "out there" concept is probably involving downloading Memories and AI being able to perfectly replicate personalities. The latter being the crazier of the two.
Mystery files changes as the characters discover more about the truth, so it stands to reason that the characters' impression influenced the game, rather than the game being the universal truth. <-- This is just my take on it.
But when did you FIRST suspected that something was off? I can't imagine you went through the first quarter without suspecting anything. I'm not sure which part of "time travel" specifically is the most impactful part of the story device.