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devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,196
The fact that it's "company-approved" just makes me think it's not gonna change anything.
Yeah, letting Riot set the time and act like they support it is really endangering the chances of actual change. They're trying to be in control of the process, which is just letting the status quo continue (with the hope that this token "support" will make the workers think they care and are amenable to change).

It needs to happen when it's inconvenient to them. When they cannot afford it. When they don't expect it. And when they can't control it.

Much respect to all the people taking part; my message would simply be to not let up. Don't let them tell you when you're free to protest the toxic working conditions, and don't let them think they can get away with doing nothing.
 

diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,269
If that's the case in all situations, then how come the medical industry and residency doctors work 60-80 hours per week as an accepted practice. Don't you think that field would be even more important/liable for doctors, compared to video game industry?

It's certainly scary that doctors who are sometimes performing very precise medical procedures are overworked / are surviving off of catnaps. Just because it's an accepted practice in other industries doesn't make it right.
 

Deleted member 2171

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,731
If that's the case in all situations, then how come the medical industry and residency doctors work 60-80 hours per week as an accepted practice. Don't you think that field would be even more important/liable for doctors, compared to video game industry?

Because the supply of doctors is intentionally constrained in the US via a slot system. They have a literal restriction on the amount of doctors that can enter the workforce every year, which keeps wages super high but basically forces the long hours due to the limited labor supply. Then there's a double whammy often of them being exempted from overtime rules.

https://news.aamc.org/press-releases/article/workforce_report_shortage_04112018/
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
It makes you wonder... If the company sanctions it... then why dont more employees participate?
Well, there's people who disagree
Kotaku said:
Not all Riot workers agreed with the sentiments behind the walkout. According to two current employees, one person was allowed to pose a rare anonymous question to executives at last week's company meeting. (Traditionally at these meetings, employees must ask questions by name.) The sources said that the anonymous question regarded employees who felt like they could not express opinions that dissented from those of frustrated employees walking out. "Maybe ten percent of us will walk out," one source said while discussing a group of dissenting co-workers. "Normally the burden of defense is on scabs."

And also people who have a hard time with walk out/riot situations in general.


We also probably should wait for the walk out representatives/GWU themselves to give us numbers, since the 100 figure comes from Riot itself, from what I'm understanding.
 

riq

Member
Feb 21, 2019
1,688
The fact that it's "company-approved" just makes me think it's not gonna change anything.
They should push harder then. If Riot say they are doing it for two hours, do it for three. Ir Riot approves of it today, do it again tomorrow.
It would look really bad for PR-spinner-Riot to say they approve this movement but then backpedal. Use it against them
 

cyklisten

Member
Nov 12, 2017
442
Good luck to all of them! Really hope these kind of practices become commonplace in the industry.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Because the supply of doctors is intentionally constrained in the US via a slot system. They have a literal restriction on the amount of doctors that can enter the workforce every year, which keeps wages super high but basically forces the long hours due to the limited labor supply. Then there's a double whammy often of them being exempted from overtime rules.

https://news.aamc.org/press-releases/article/workforce_report_shortage_04112018/
Are you saying it's only doctors in the US that work 60-80 hours per week?

I don't believe that's the case (although I have not researched every single country in the world)

I have visited Asia many times because I'm chinese, and I'm pretty sure some asian countries have similar hours. I think India might also be similar, but I have not personally visited there
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,546
All those articles exposing sexism, forced crunch, etc. in studios are paying off no matter what naysayers think
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,141
Alberta
If they really want to support the walkout, Riot should fire that COO. Months ago would have been better, but today would also work.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,109
If only double that number at maybe a dozen studios in the US did this for maybe two days? Hell maybe an afternoon? Instant union.
 

KoopaSwitch

Banned
Jan 17, 2018
1,260
So would you say that you're against workers in the game industry obtaining a better QOL because your dear little video games would cost a few bucks higher to buy?

We had meltdowns when DK Tropical Freeze was $60 on Switch and $50 on the Wii U.

Imagine when the prices go higher and take longer to come out? And more content pushed into paid DLC.

No one wants to think about this, and everyone will say its OK (right now) if they form a union (which won't happen anyway) ...but you'll all complain later on.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,301
Union = probably higher game prices.

If these companies cannot be sustainable with unionized workforces, then they are bad companies and shouldn't exist. Games of all kinds are made in places that have labour protections. Games are being made around the world without crunch. Activision can't do it? Sony won't give up winnings for proper employment protections? Fuck them. Let them go under.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
cmon, you certainly cannot be oblivious enough to realize that lots of people around the world might care about prices of products?

You know the vast majority of video game buyers do not read hardcore message board forums like ERA or reddit? and therefore do not know nor care about issues like this

also not even every ERA poster cares either
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
cmon, you certainly cannot be oblivious enough to realize that lots of people around the world might care about prices of products?

You know the vast majority of video game buyers do not read hardcore message board forums like ERA or reddit? and therefore do not know nor care about issues like this

also not even every ERA poster cares either
I don't hold the opinion of people against fair pay and hours high since they're hypocrites who want the same from their work place.
 

AcridMeat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,667
Stay strong Riot strikers!!! The whole gaming world will be watching. Know that you are representing more than yourselves, developers everywhere will stand and take notice of actions from both sides. Be on the right side of history. Unify your message and the specific changes you want to see rectified. We're with you!
Agreed, hopefully this sparks more.
 

Prison_mike

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,433
So if someone is a Project Manager at Riot, would they be the problem or one one of the people that would potentially walk out? I'm unfamiliar with how video game companies are structured.
 

KoopaSwitch

Banned
Jan 17, 2018
1,260
If these companies cannot be sustainable with unionized workforces, then they are bad companies and shouldn't exist. Games of all kinds are made in places that have labour protections. Games are being made around the world without crunch. Activision can't do it? Sony won't give up winnings for proper employment protections? Fuck them. Let them go under.

Im confused... you want more job loss?
 

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
So if someone is a Project Manager at Riot, would they be the problem or one one of the people that would potentially walk out? I'm unfamiliar with how video game companies are structured.
They could be either? A project manager manages the structure and progress of a particular project, which could be anything. They do not typically manage people. They could walk out or not, they could be problematic or not. Being problematic is not particular to any role -- you can be a toxic software engineer, designer, artist, people manager, project manager, product manager, program manager..title is almost irrelevant for determining whether someone is problematic or sympathetic. I'd say most management, as in, people management, is likely heavily discouraged from participating, though. Basically, if you have people reporting to you, I can see this being a harder choice.
 

SDBurton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,397

The number of people on here who won't hesitate to use any means necessary to purchase a game outside their region if it means paying less for it.

Personally I don't care and would have no problem paying more, but a lot of people here would say otherwise.
 

Absent Breeze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
488
Yeah, letting Riot set the time and act like they support it is really endangering the chances of actual change. They're trying to be in control of the process, which is just letting the status quo continue (with the hope that this token "support" will make the workers think they care and are amenable to change).

It needs to happen when it's inconvenient to them. When they cannot afford it. When they don't expect it. And when they can't control it.

Much respect to all the people taking part; my message would simply be to not let up. Don't let them tell you when you're free to protest the toxic working conditions, and don't let them think they can get away with doing nothing.

The fact that it's "company-approved" just makes me think it's not gonna change anything.

That's not what happened. The walkout was going to be at these times no matter what, and as a a response riot released a directive to managers/leads saying to just essentially shift schedules to make it look like they were "supporting" this process the whole time, and spin the narrative that this walkout was organized by the corp itself.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
Im confused... you want more job loss?
Hi, I'm the CEO of a small video game development company and your 80's-era conservative economic views are devastating to worker's rights and ensuring proper labor conditions for typically overworked and underpaid employees.

The market, based on its current size, will bear out a certain amount of revenue per year and, as a direct correlation, a number of jobs in the industry. It's clear that incredible games can be made under conditions that properly treat the worker; the work of Insomniac games and many others correlate this. If companies are unable to sustain their unhealthy business practices, individual employees at a company might be let go, but new jobs will open up in the industry to take their place, because there's a vacated space. And while there might be marginally fewer jobs overall due to higher wages, the better conditions and higher level of attracted talent can easily offset that in terms of overall productivity.

"But what about layoffs" nonsense can be used to justify literally anything. Why have a minimum wage if it's going to raise the prices of games? Why have anti-discrimination laws? Why have labor laws at all, if they're going to get in the way of the bottom line?

You're essentially telling the people who make your precious games that you don't give a shit about them. Now, no one says you have to, but coming into this thread and basically telling them to fuck off is unacceptable, in my opinion.

Keep your mouth shut if you're gonna spout this bullshit rhetoric.
 
Last edited:

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
Power to the motherfucking people, hopefully this is the first of many acts of united workers standing up for themselves!
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
I don't hold the opinion of people against fair pay and hours high since they're hypocrites who want the same from their work place.
You make too many assumptions about people you don't know

I've never felt any need to protest policies at my job. However, I chose not to take a job that's 60-80 hours per week, because I know I would not personally want that

Assuming you are in America, it's a free country and you can accept any job you wish. I read the employee agreement contract before I accepted & signed it, so I know what was required before going in.

However -- I will say the one hypothetical situation that I would support protesting/suing is if a company does NOT hold up their end of an employee agreement contract, and fraudulently violates the terms. Any company that does that should be sued and prosecuted
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,196
That's not what happened. The walkout was going to be at these times no matter what, and as a a response riot released a directive to managers/leads saying to just essentially shift schedules to make it look like they were "supporting" this process the whole time, and spin the narrative that this walkout was organized by the corp itself.
That's the point. Riot is essentially taking control of the process by carving out an allowance for it. A poster above said it much better than I did:

They should push harder then. If Riot say they are doing it for two hours, do it for three. Ir Riot approves of it today, do it again tomorrow.
It would look really bad for PR-spinner-Riot to say they approve this movement but then backpedal. Use it against them
Acquiescing (by doing it in the way that Riot has now said is OK) is simply handing control to them to ignore the protest and continue on with business-as-usual.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
We had meltdowns when DK Tropical Freeze was $60 on Switch and $50 on the Wii U.

Imagine when the prices go higher and take longer to come out? And more content pushed into paid DLC.

No one wants to think about this, and everyone will say its OK (right now) if they form a union (which won't happen anyway) ...but you'll all complain later on.

PS2 without unions: $50

PS3 without unions: $60

Turns out that unions literally do nothing whatsoever to cause prices to increase and that prices increase because they can.

And yeah, I guess a lot of people who prefer cheaper media over ethical treatment of workers would be upset.

Also, people were upset that a game that was $20 on the Wii U got raised beyond its MSRP despite Nintendo being better off. Bringing that up only demonstrates further that corporations don't need a reason to upcharge you.
 

riq

Member
Feb 21, 2019
1,688
Hi, I'm the CEO of a small video game development company and your 80's-era conservative economic views are devastating to worker's rights and ensuring proper labor conditions for typically overworked and underpaid employees.

The market, based on its current size, will bear out a certain amount of revenue per year and, as a direct correlation, a number of jobs in the industry. It's clear that incredible games can be made under conditions that properly treat the worker; the work of Insomniac games and many others correlate this. If companies are unable to sustain their unhealthy business practices, individual employees at a company might be let go, but new jobs will open up in the industry to take their place, because there's a vacated space. And while there might be marginally fewer jobs overall due to higher wages, the better conditions and higher level of attracted talent can easily offset that in terms of overall productivity.

"But what about layoffs" nonsense can be used to justify literally anything. Why have a minimum wage if it's going to raise the prices of games? Why have anti-discrimination laws? Why have labor laws at all, if they're going to get in the way of the bottom line?

You're essentially telling the people who make your precious games that you don't give a shit about them. Now, no one says you have to, but coming into this thread and basically telling them to fuck off is unacceptable, in my opinion.

Keep your mouth shut if you're gonna spout this bullshit rhetoric.
BRB, gonna buy an Iridium game real quick.
Absolutely necessary post.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
And yeah, I guess a lot of people who prefer cheaper media over ethical treatment of workers would be upset.
I mean... I would guess the majority of people in the world would feel this way, if they're being honest about it

Do you think most people in the world would be totally fine with higher prices of products? of course we do not have an official statistic/poll on this, but I would doubt it. Think about people outside America/rich countries. You think people in poorer countries want to pay higher prices for video games?
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
However -- I will say the one hypothetical situation that I would support protesting/suing is if a company does NOT hold up their end of an employee agreement contract, and fraudulently violates the terms. Any company that does that should be sued and prosecuted

This is probably the single most important thing a union can accomplish though. Individual employees often don't even understand their legal rights or the full implications of their contracts, or have the resources and bargaining power to make sure their legal and contractual rights are enforced. Organized labor is a means of disseminating information about what management is actually doing and calling them out for bullshit.

For example, my wife works at Legal Aid in a major city. She and her co-workers are super intelligent and highly educated and could walk off for much higher paying jobs any day. Management is totally erratic, and their union is instrumental in just making sure workplace policies are even coherent.

I don't hold the position that unions are a universal unmitigated good, but at the current margin in the games industry more labor organization is pretty clearly needed.