1.5 years after I got my Computer Science degree & still no job. Is going back for my Master’s my only option now?

[rude]

I just got a rejection email at 4 AM for a job I did 3 interviews for, so it's starting to feel like my Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science from December 2020 is going to waste. And since that was my last chance to my presents, my folks are making me sign up for my Master's. Are they right in that I'm out of options? Here's my previous thread on the subject for context…

It's been 10 months since I graduated & I'm still hunting for a job (Bachelor's in Computer Science, Houston)

To be clear, I've been job hunting since even before I graduated back in December 2020. Counting that time (since August 2020), I've been at it for over a year now. At first I thought it was just the pandemic, & that probably does play a role. But at this point, I feel like there's something...

www.resetera.com

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[BigDes]

Have you gone back to these companies that have rejected you and asked for feedback?

 

[Neoxon]

[Hidden content][Hidden content]

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[Macam]

A Masters is just basically equivalent to two years of work exp, unless you're doing a real specialization. I'm not going to hire someone who has no experience just because they have a masters degree.

I don't think that's the answer.

EDIT: Ah, Houston. Grew up there and while there are jobs and it may be growing from zero, there's not a lot of software eng jobs there, relative to other places and will probably be places you haven't heard of. I mean, yeah, there's a huge medical center and oil and gas, but oil and gas usually hires out to consultants (eg, Accenture), so your options are less. I also wouldn't hire someone with no experience for a remote job, because they would likely require a fair bit of guidance and hand holding and I'd want assurance they could self start and deliver, IMO.

Local uni's (UH, Rice) sometimes have positions more amenable to newbies but you just may need to do some digging into smaller companies. Defense has a whole generation of people retiring for sure, and that's a pretty on the rails job if you can get necessary clearances. If you need guidance on interviewing you could try Self Made Millenial as she has some decent advice.

 

[Spoit]

Master in Data Science or AI could be a useful degree. Still... Last 2 years were hit for tech, something is off OP if you couldn't close the interviews or didn't get enough of them.

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Yeah, AI and machine learning is like the exception that proves the rule in terms of the Masters mattering. Mostly because it's a much more academic field than just slinging code

 

[B4mv]

I wish you luck, I do find it interesting that it's that difficult to find a job, for some reason I thought CS degrees were instant jobs. My company doesn't really hire remote, otherwise I'd toss some job listings your way

 

[Mekanos]

As someone who's still learning to code, gonna look at this thread for a later reference, lots of useful info in here.

I hope you find something soon Neoxon, i know job hunting is the pits, but I think I'm gonna agree that you might need a different strategy than just more education.

 

[Zoe]

I wish you luck, I do find it interesting that it's that difficult to find a job, for some reason I thought CS degrees were instant jobs. My company doesn't really hire remote, otherwise I'd toss some job listings your way

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CS doesn't give you real world experience. That's why you usually either need internships or to start in an adjacent role.

 

[captive]

It may seem like there are plenty of options out there, but you are viewing it from a fishbowl. I keep up with Houston since my best friend in tech still works there and my parents still continue to live there, but no, it is not comparable to even... Austin, lets say. Other cities are like a massive ocean of opportunities. Also, remote roles, in my experience, are going to more senior engineers.

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Sorry but no. You totally missed my point and keep saying "but Austin"

The point that you missed, is every company over 100 people large needs IT. From help desk, to systems administration to DBAs, to web dev and even programmers. The first job I ever had was at a mental health hospital was only 300 FTEs and we had 2 DBAs 1 full time programmer, several part time programmers + help desk and sys admins.
I've worked sys admin for carriage services, horizon wind energy, a small university housing management company. All of these companies have full time staff programmers.

And as I already mentioned sysco foods is here, United airlines, Chevron, baker Hughes etc etc.
And then there's consulting companies like catapult, spark hound, frysoft, long view systems, fiserv, slalom etc.

Secondly not everyone is gonna work at FAANG, but Houston has 3 Microsoft office locations, three. IBM has at least 3 that I know of. Fucking NASA is here. Aws and Google both opened offices here recently.

Our user group for systems management in the Microsoft world, is the second largest user group in the US. And that's just Microsoft centric.

 

[turbobrick]

I wish you luck, I do find it interesting that it's that difficult to find a job, for some reason I thought CS degrees were instant jobs. My company doesn't really hire remote, otherwise I'd toss some job listings your way

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Its all about experience. The more you have the easier it is to get jobs. When you're first starting out its quite hard as there's few true entry level positions and a lot of people applying to them. Most of the people applying all have a CS degree anyway. I think the only reason I'm even getting interviews despite my employment gap is because I have real world experience.

 

[Turnscr3w]

DON'T. it's all math. It's so much math I got a double minor in math by taking 1 extra math class.

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Off topic, if you don't mind asking me. Do you think it's worth it to study software engineering or coding if you suck at math?

 

[GameDev]

Off topic, if you don't mind asking me. Do you think it's worth it to study software engineering or coding if you suck at math?

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Depends what you mean by suck at math.

Unless you're going into a math heavy subfield of development (data science, game programming, graphics programming, simulations programming, etc), it rarely goes beyond high school math. But you do need to be able to do that high school math.

 

[Aadiboy]

So these defense jobs that are hiring now, do you mean Department of Defense or something else?

 

[Turnscr3w]

Depends what you mean by suck at math.

Unless you're going into a math heavy subfield of development (data science, game programming, graphics programming, simulations programming, etc), it rarely goes beyond high school math. But you do need to be able to do that high school math.

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I barely graduated high school because of my math grades.

 

[TrashHeap64]

School is fine but they really want experience more than anything, sadly

 

[lucebuce]

I barely graduated high school because of my math grades.

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That also depends. Did you barely graduate cause you hate calculus and stuff like that, you didn't really put in the effort, nothing about it ever clicked, you just straight up weren't having a good time?

There's a lot of degrees to this stuff and I ask because there's a lot of degrees to how much math is involved if you work in software. As GameDev said, any subfield that's based entirely on calculus or linear algebra or just math in general is out the window so nothing to do with graphics or data analytics/science. And you'll never TRULY just absolutely escape math but you can still find yourself only having to do the bare minimum of math. Just basic algebra and functions and stuff like that, nothing too crazy.

For areas like that, Web Development is a decent option to pursue IMO. I'd highly recommend learning some very basic level coding and trying to make something close to a working program before coming to any major decision though. It's possible that it all might not click with you.

 

[Turnscr3w]

That also depends. Did you barely graduate cause you hate calculus and stuff like that, you didn't really put in the effort, nothing about it ever clicked, you just straight up weren't having a good time?

There's a lot of degrees to this stuff and I ask because there's a lot of degrees to how much math is involved if you work in software. As GameDev said, any subfield that's based entirely on calculus or linear algebra or just math in general is out the window so nothing to do with graphics or data analytics/science. And you'll never TRULY just absolutely escape math but you can still find yourself only having to do the bare minimum of math. Just basic algebra and functions and stuff like that, nothing too crazy.

For areas like that, Web Development is a decent option to pursue IMO. I'd highly recommend learning some very basic level coding and trying to make something close to a working program before coming to any major decision though. It's possible that it all might not click with you.

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In high school I definitely put in the effort I was just a really dumb.

I'm learning python right now and trying to make a game.
I do understand understand javascript even tho some stuff don't make a lot of sense.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

I barely graduated high school because of my math grades.

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alot of programming is just basic algebra, meaning youre working out steps and logic paths using variables. you need to be able to think about a problem, break it down and work through the steps to get the result. so even if youre not doing pure math with calculations youre still doing basic problem solving steps

 

[lucebuce]

In high school I definitely put in the effort I was just a really dumb.

I'm learning python right now and trying to make a game.
I do understand understand javascript even tho some stuff don't make a lot of sense.

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All right so bad news you wanna make games. That's gonna involve math. Again there are degrees of how much math depending on where you wanna be but in this one, you're just not gonna escape math lol.

Good news, it seems like you've already started and haven't gotten so frustrated that you wanna quit which is great! The great thing about programming FYI is that once you've built up a solid foundation for yourself, skills will transfer over to other languages fairly quickly. I like to use fighting games as a good comparison (since I remember you posting in some of those threads). Once you understand how the neutral works in say street fighter then adapting to something slower or faster is really about learning this specific's game's intracies. You're not learning whiff punishment or spacing all over again. It's a similar principle in programming.

If you want to make a basic function that does one thing then the logic and flow of it is going to be the same regardless of language. It's just that in some languages, there might be a function already implemented that makes your task easier. Some might force you to be more careful about how you go about it (stuff like memory management, etc), some might be more liberal but the core of it will remain the same. So building a solid foundation of problem solving is important regardless of where you wanna go in software.

And yeah, naturally each language has its own stuff so its gonna take time to learn the advanced stuff in each language. Javascript in particular has a lot of JS-specific eccentricities which can take effort to get used to lol. Even me, coming from a standard programming background, still had to adjust to the way JS does things at times. I'd highly suggest just focusing on one language to begin with, Python ideally over Javascript. Python is considered an easy to pick up language, and is super strong. I don't know how viable its gonna be if your long term goal is game development cause I'm not a game dev but its still a worthwhile jumping in point to programming in general.

 

[Filipus]

OP, send me a PM if you need someone to practice interviews. I got my job last year but something is better than nothing.

You should also share your resume here. If you have been a year and a half without work i would stop caring a little less about personal privacy and just get all the help you can get.


I'm also honestly surprised you are saying you aren't getting a lot of interviews. If practice is what you need, why don't you apply to like 100 companies (even if they aren't in your location) and just do them?
I already had a job i was working at and I still went to do my Amazon interviews.

 

[Neoxon]

OP, send me a PM if you need someone to practice interviews. I got my job last year but something is better than nothing.

You should also share your resume here. If you have been a year and a half without work i would stop caring a little less about personal privacy and just get all the help you can get.


I'm also honestly surprised you are saying you aren't getting a lot of interviews. If practice is what you need, why don't you apply to like 100 companies (even if they aren't in your location) and just do them?
I already had a job i was working at and I still went to do my Amazon interviews.

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Not sure about putting my resume publicly on here, but I do like the mock interview idea.

 

[Kreed]

I think my parents brought up the possibility of having my dad go with me to another city since he already works remotely anyway.

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I remember feeling fairly nervous during the 2nd interview, but mellowed out by the third. The 3rd was supposed to be with the 2nd if the other person was present, so maybe that did me in.

I'm mostly applying within Houston, by the way.

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You need to start searching for remote jobs also on LinkedIn, Indeed, WeWorkRemotely, Stack Overflow, etc... On a site like Indeed for example, you should be searching for postings with your code language/stack and "remote", without any location filters. Just make sure the postings are actually 100% remote jobs and not "partially remote".

 

[Neoxon]

You need to start searching for remote jobs also on LinkedIn, Indeed, WeWorkRemotely, Stack Overflow, etc... On a site like Indeed for example, you should be searching for postings with your code language/stack and "remote", without any location filters. Just make sure the postings are actually 100% remote jobs and not "partially remote".

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I have been applying for remote jobs as well, but good call on removing the city filter & checking more sites besides Indeed & LinkedIn.

 

[Mesoian]

Off topic, if you don't mind asking me. Do you think it's worth it to study software engineering or coding if you suck at math?

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Do you suck at math or do you dislike math?

If you're just bad at math, there are a lot of tools that you can use to assist you in computations and set up. If you dislike math...you should jump ship.

I would say, try playing Satisfactory and build a factory for total efficiency, no brute forcing, everything working at 100%, which is just a series of simple math equations. If you have fun doing that, you can probably navigate your programming language of choice pretty well. If you can't...well, I'd figure out what you enjoy doing and try to hinge on that.

 

[Turnscr3w]

Do you suck at math or do you dislike math?

If you're just bad at math, there are a lot of tools that you can use to assist you in computations and set up. If you dislike math...you should jump ship.

I would say, try playing Satisfactory and build a factory for total efficiency, no brute forcing, everything working at 100%, which is just a series of simple math equations. If you have fun doing that, you can probably navigate your programming language of choice pretty well. If you can't...well, I'd figure out what you enjoy doing and try to hinge on that.

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I just suck at it.

I've played Satisfactory and I found it.

 

[Filipus]

Not sure about putting my resume publicly on here, but I do like the mock interview idea.

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Just remove your name/contact info.
Something is wrong and we are all grasping at straws until we can see the full picture :)

How many places have you applied to? How many interviews have you had?
Have you tried the two hour job search method?

 

[killerrin]

Unfortunately OP, I don't think getting a masters will help you. CS in particular is just a real stupidly hard nut to break into. HR and Management are typically super conservative with who they hire becuase of how high salaries and benefits tend to be out of the gate. Add on the unrealistic expectations that go towards junior positions.

Junior positions generally aren't actually junior positions, but rather intermediate positions where the first step on the latter was actually an unpaid/minimum-wage internship. Despite the fact that everyone is desperate for more IT workers, nobody wants to actually change the status quo and would prefer to poach from eachother rather than go through the effort of vetting, training and trying to keep around graduates with no experience. Of course though, once you have been vetted its super easy to get interviews, job offers and positions. But the whole thing is just incredibly stupid from a time->effort perspective for those trying to break in.

If you do go back for your degree. It would mainly be just to reset the clock on your resume so you don't seem toxic as a candidate, and so you can actually focus on trying to get student internships and coops that are exclusive to those in school. But also you should try and specialize in something more specific than general CS like AI because that will help get you past the BS of the general CS pool of candidates and let you apply for more specialized roles where there is fewer people around to compete for them.

Good luck!

 

[Macam]

So these defense jobs that are hiring now, do you mean Department of Defense or something else?

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Not sure about DoD (I'm sure those position exist but never looked/worked there, so you'd have to check the federal gov site), but most people likely mean the major defense contractors like Lockheed, Raytheon, SAIC/whatever their spin off was, NAASCO, etc etc. Staff is generally older (as our the tech stacks), so they tend to need to fill those positions.

 

[Neoxon]

Just remove your name/contact info.
Something is wrong and we are all grasping at straws until we can see the full picture :)

How many places have you applied to? How many interviews have you had?
Have you tried the two hour job search method?

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I usually apply to at least five places every day for five days a week.

And good idea, I'll try to do a censored version of my résumé & post it here soon.

 

[Macam]

Unfortunately OP, I don't think getting a masters will help you. CS in particular is just a real stupidly hard nut to break into. HR and Management are typically super conservative with who they hire becuase of how high salaries and benefits tend to be out of the gate. Add on the unrealistic expectations that go towards junior positions.

Junior positions generally aren't actually junior positions, but rather intermediate positions where the first step on the latter was actually an unpaid/minimum-wage internship. Despite the fact that everyone is desperate for more IT workers, nobody wants to actually change the status quo and would prefer to poach from eachother rather than go through the effort of vetting, training and trying to keep around graduates with no experience. Of course though, once you have been vetted its super easy to get interviews, job offers and positions. But the whole thing is just incredibly stupid from a time->effort perspective for those trying to break in.

If you do go back for your degree. It would mainly be just to reset the clock on your resume so you don't seem toxic as a candidate, and so you can actually focus on trying to get student internships and coops that are exclusive to those in school. But also you should try and specialize in something more specific than general CS like AI because that will help get you past the BS of the general CS pool of candidates and let you apply for more specialized roles where there is fewer people around to compete for them.

Good luck!

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This is accurate. Entry level stuff tends to be done by interns on summer contracts or offshore/nearshore staff. Point in case, we recently opened an office in Tijuana and a lot of our more junior devs come from there (same time zone, accessible, lower labor costs).

 

[Jencks]

So these defense jobs that are hiring now, do you mean Department of Defense or something else?

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Yes. Also big contractors like Boeing, Lockheed, L3, etc.

 

[Filipus]

I usually apply to at least five places every day for five days a week.

And good idea, I'll try to do a censored version of my résumé & post it here soon.

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So you have applied to over a thousand jobs.
How many of those turned into any kind of interview?
And of those interviews, how many times did you get to the "last phase"?

 

[John Doe]

OP I was in your boat as well, took me a year and a half to find a job. Job hunting sucks pond water.

I hope you succeed soon. Are there are networking events in your area that you can attend? Or volunteer organisations? I mention volunteering because sometimes you find a few top people in the community are involved in those organisations for PR purposes. So you might be able to meet someone while volunteering. Plus it looks good on a resume, so that if someone asks what you've been doing, you can say you were volunteering.

 

[TrashHeap64]

Off topic, if you don't mind asking me. Do you think it's worth it to study software engineering or coding if you suck at math?

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It depends on what you want to do. Programming a physics engine is obviously going to be heavily math based. I develop scripts to process data for our data scientist and I'm notoriously bad at math. I don't have to worry about it very often and when I do a quick Google search helps me find the right calculation that I pass my variables into.

 

[Neoxon]

So you have applied to over a thousand jobs.
How many of those turned into any kind of interview?
And of those interviews, how many times did you get to the "last phase"?

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Only a couple of times, and this most recent one I was rejected for was the only time I got as far as I did.

 

[Turnscr3w]

It depends on what you want to do. Programming a physics engine is obviously going to be heavily math based. I develop scripts to process data for our data scientist and I'm notoriously bad at math. I don't have to worry about it very often and when I do a quick Google search helps me find the right calculation that I pass my variables into.

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I understand.
I have no idea what I'm doing in the future. I'm learning python right now, and I have javascript knowledge. I think coding is fun and I want get out of my current job.

Before somebody asks. No, I can't get a degree in CS, because it requires a math test, as of writing this I've failed 3 tests.
I'm currently studying public politics (I know garbage), but I can sight into master "software engineer" in the future.

 

[Filipus]

Only a couple of times, and this most recent one I was rejected for was the only time I got as far as I did.

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Yes there is something seriously wrong with your resume/cover letter.
Just by being a graduate in CS you should be getting 5%-10% of at least the first round of interviews.

Have you tried googling your name also? What comes up?
Right now I'm grasping at straws because this is not only uncommon it's outright strange. We are talking about one of the hottest industries in the world right now.

Share as much as you can of the stuff you are sending employers, people here can help you.

 

[turbobrick]

Yes there is something seriously wrong with your resume/cover letter.
Just by being a graduate in CS you should be getting 5%-10% of at least the first round of interviews.

Have you tried googling your name also? What comes up?
Right now I'm grasping at straws because this is not only uncommon it's outright strange. We are talking about one of the hottest industries in the world right now.

Share as much as you can of the stuff you are sending employers, people here can help you.

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5%-10% seems pretty high for entry level jobs and having no real experience. I personally don't know anyone in the same boat that has that good of a success rate. Personally I'm getting one first phone interview for about every 40 jobs I apply to.

 

[Filipus]

5%-10% seems pretty high for entry level jobs and having no real experience. I personally don't know anyone in the same boat that has that good of a success rate. Personally I'm getting one first phone interview for about every 40 jobs I apply to.

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That was the rates of people in my class 🤷‍♂️
I was at the lower end because I was looking for jobs just in my state/remote because of my family situation, those willing to relocate were on the 10% i was talking about (I'm counting this just a simple zoom call or phone call).

But even if OP was at the rate you are saying, 2%, he should have 200+ interviews and not a couple. Let's hope we can help :)

 

[captmcblack]

5%-10% seems pretty high for entry level jobs and having no real experience. I personally don't know anyone in the same boat that has that good of a success rate. Personally I'm getting one first phone interview for about every 40 jobs I apply to.

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Yeah, this is probably a very generous reply rate for job applications just cold emailed/uploaded into the ether w/out a recruiter or something guiding it through the HRMSes on job sites, especially if you're not some graduate from a big-name school. Maybe Ivy League grads or grads from top-level engineering schools get that kind of rate, but the average public/regular local private college graduate? I dunno.

Anyway, I still think that there'll be more success taking much of the advice in this thread, particularly the ones to try adjacent jobs and industries rather than be single-minded on a software engineer/dev job immediately. It's cool to try your hand and see if you get exactly what you want, but after a few months you have to ask yourself if the priority is to be employed in exactly what you want, or if the priority is to be employed in something "good enough". You don't have to settle for just anything with a CS degree, but there's no reason that you couldn't start as a BA or project coordinator/manager or support engineer or like...myriad things and then once you have that first job, second job get yourself that dev role.

 

[Zej]

Would be helpful to see which jobs you're applying for.

Does your uni provide any post-grad career support? Have you networked by attending local meetups? Do you have any contacts in the industry that could help you get an interview?

Are you still learning things post-grad? What does your ideal software eng job look like? How much of your time is devoted to interviewing/demonstrating skills?

Also, do you have any prior work history (related or not to programming)?

 

[turbobrick]

Yeah, this is probably a very generous reply rate for job applications just cold emailed/uploaded into the ether w/out a recruiter or something guiding it through the HRMSes on job sites, especially if you're not some graduate from a big-name school. Maybe Ivy League grads or grads from top-level engineering schools get that kind of rate, but the average public/regular local private college graduate? I dunno.

Anyway, I still think that there'll be more success taking much of the advice in this thread, particularly the ones to try adjacent jobs and industries rather than be single-minded on a software engineer/dev job immediately. It's cool to try your hand and see if you get exactly what you want, but after a few months you have to ask yourself if the priority is to be employed in exactly what you want, or if the priority is to be employed in something "good enough". You don't have to settle for just anything with a CS degree, but there's no reason that you couldn't start as a BA or project coordinator/manager or support engineer or like...myriad things and then once you have that first job, second job get yourself that dev role.

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With starting in a non-dev role, one thing I'd wonder is what those other jobs even are. Personally while I would like to be a software dev, its not a hard requirement. But when looking through job listings its hard to know what's in the same-ish field that I'm also qualified to do. I have applied to a couple analyst jobs in the past, but not many.

 

[JJDubz]

5%-10% seems pretty high for entry level jobs and having no real experience. I personally don't know anyone in the same boat that has that good of a success rate. Personally I'm getting one first phone interview for about every 40 jobs I apply to.

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1 in 40 seems much more typical. Would not surprise me if it is even worse for the super unlucky applicants--like 1 in a 100.

 

[EdenOfTheEast]

Don't do a masters - look at what you know and compare it with what you don't know.

Okay what programming languages do you know - can you learn more. And also think of the roles your apply for - are they junior dev roles , cloud ops ?

 

[Zej]

It's more of an issue when you've been in the industry for a while (15+ years). I see many senior positions strongly recommending a master's degree now, though technically still requiring a bachelor's degree. In the very senior positions I've seen resumes and/or been on an interview panel for, most candidates had a master's degree.

In other words, it won't help much right out of the gate, but it's something you'd probably want to look into a decade or so down the road.

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Nah. That's ridiculous. No place worth working is all of a sudden requiring a masters once you have 15+ years of experience.

If it's a specialized research heavy field that you're pivoting to, maybe, but that's a completely different situation. It's quite silly to say to get it now because it'll be worth it in 15 years.

Experience and willingness to learn/curiousity will get you much further than a piece of paper.

 

[Zoe]

With starting in a non-dev role, one thing I'd wonder is what those other jobs even are. Personally while I would like to be a software dev, its not a hard requirement. But when looking through job listings its hard to know what's in the same-ish field that I'm also qualified to do. I have applied to a couple analyst jobs in the past, but not many.

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QA and Data Analyst are probably the most common adjacent roles

 

[TooBusyLookinGud]

What are you getting your masters in? I have an undergrad in Software Engineering with a minor in CS and a masters in Engineering Management. With 15 years experience, I wouldn't go for a CS masters as it's null in your case and was null in mine.

I'd go for a management degree because you have too much experience for a CS masters IMO.

Edit:
I got my masters after 10 years experience. I started my masters journey thinking of getting a masters in CS but found out it was not for me. If you have a specific concentration that you want to focus on like AI then I'd do it.

 

[vainya]

I was unemployed for 3 and a half years so more than double the time you are. I had the same issue, I would go on interviews but never get a job. Now that I look back on it, a lot of the reasons this happened boiled down to me just being desperate for any job and not knowing what I wanted (Interviewers pick up on this), the gap in my resume, and of course discrimination. Once someone gave me a chance I was able to really nail down what I wanted to do.

It sounds like you know most web languages, have you tried looking for Web Production roles? Web Production is just a fancy name for Web Master. I have been doing this for 8 years and I've seen many people move on to front end development and software development position from there. I on the other hand did decide to get my masters but it's in a totally unrelated field. I just got tired of doing Web Production. But it's a good starting point for actual coding jobs and they hire all the time for this position in every company.

 

[Vic Damone Jr.]

As someone who's still learning to code, gonna look at this thread for a later reference, lots of useful info in here.

I hope you find something soon Neoxon, i know job hunting is the pits, but I think I'm gonna agree that you might need a different strategy than just more education.

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Yea, I'm in the same boat. Taking down as much useful info from here as I can.

 

[captive]

i dont know that i ever saw you say what exactly you were looking for OP but this just came across my twitter feed.


View: https://twitter.com/AdoraNwodo/status/1559158283641970688?s=20&t=rvtoWLFP7h5zUttbYPFaJQ