“Why can you be racist against white people?”

[NinjaScooter]

White people trying to diminish racism, cry reverse racism, etc...are attempts to reinforce the existing systemic racism that benefits them.

The fact that these stupid ass conversations even need to be had ensures that shit never changes.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

They invented it so they are immune to being racist towards. Checkmate polytheist

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Racism isn't just saying derogatory generalizations out loud. It's an entire system intended to protect the in-group and exploit the out-group.

Your dad only need look at history to realize that there's a long record of white racism enacted on the systemic level to protect other white people as long as the victim isn't white.

As we can see this is still true today. They almost got away with it. Fortunately things have shifted somewhat as the state level did do something about it. Still a dollar short and a day late.

 

[Bambi Is My Dad]

Myth of Reverse Racism — Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre

www.aclrc.com

This is pretty much a good start into understanding why being racist to white people isn't really equivalent to racism against other races

 

[ItIsOkBro]

it simply does not exist.

 

[Deleted member 18944]

Absolute bullshit.

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are you sure? care to explain further?

 

[Idde]

"The difference is that what I said about white people is true."



You can be racially prejudiced against white people, but racism really requires a power structure and systemic imbalance in favor of the racist party.

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That is (unfortunately) what is has changed into and is the far more harmful and prevalent meaning now. I don't see the 'need' of a power structure. Anyone can deem another (persons) race as inferior, and behave accordingly. The behavior and the consequences dictate how 'bad' the racism is. And again, white people have it the easiest by far.

I don't really see a difference between what you call racially prejudiced and racism.

 

[Speevy]

The only time I ever felt like I was being singled out because I was white was on the playground when a few black guys decided to be assholes to me.

This didn't affect my family, my job, my future, or my general outlook on life. I just don't care.

 

[Midgarian]

The only reason racism is a thing is because the arbitrary classification of different "races," with one race coincidentally being considered "better" than the others, was created specifically to reinforce existing power dynamics in the first place.

That's the only damn reason "race" as a concept exists. It's not genetic, nor are classifications even consistently applied across different cultures. It's a belief system.

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Yep. And my "go to" argument for this point are the ethnic groups like mine (Turkish) and the Mediterranean Europeans and people of the Caucasus, who have a diversity of phenotypes among them and don't fit neatly into the Anglosphere's White vs Non-White divide.

Within Turkey all Turks see each other as Turks. The colour concept of race isn't common, only people who have interacted a bit with American pop culture are aware of it.

But take a random group of Turks to USA and some will pass as White and be guessed as European Christians and some will have a bit more of an exotic look and be guessed as Latin American (mixed White-Amerindan) or Middle Eastern, some even have a Eurasian look. But they're all the same ethnic group, when they look at each other they don't see the differences.

Those differences have to be learned, as they are in the Anglosphere's popular concept of colour/look based racial categories, that try and group and shoehorn distinct ethnic groups into neat and definitive lines that don't exist in reality.

 

[Kotto]

People saying you CAN be racist to white people are going to bring up literal definitions of the word or how slurs exist for people considered white.

They won't bring up the systemic power that comes with racism or the many benefits that society gives to white people.

 

[Deleted member 23094]

You do have a choice to either be a supportive Ally or just sit where you're at right now with a indifferent and dismissive attitude towards topics like these.

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I'm not sure what more I can do other than calling out the people in my life who have said things I've found to be racist. It's one of the few things I don't shy away from and feel needs to be confronted. I don't find humor in topics regarding race either so maybe I'm just boring in that sense.

 

[Mad_Titan86]

Edit: not worth it. I'll just grow my ignore list

 

[R0b1n]

I feel like discussions such as these here always boil down to how people define racism

 

[Marzipan]

White people trying to diminish racism, cry reverse racism, etc...are attempts to reinforce the existing systemic racism that benefits them.

The fact that these stupid ass conversations even need to be had ensures that shit never changes.

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At some point the denial is almost worse than the outright racism, like damn they really think we are that stupid that they're going to deny what's in front of our eyes every damn day. Also LOL at OP telling on his Asian dad

 

[Deleted member 16657]

The average person understands "racism" to equal "bigotry" and has no concept of power dynamics.

"His retort will always be the same, "Mariolee , that's racist! You call me racist when I say black people are lazy, but I can't call you racist when you say something like that about white people?""

If you replace racism with "bigoted" here, as you dad likely intends to say, then your dad is pretty much right. He absolutely can call you a bigot. Whether you're justified to be bigoted towards white people or not is an entirely different conversation, but bigotry towards white people exists while racism doesn't.

Its a shame that the real conversation to be had here as a society is constantly muddled by semantics.

 

[Mona]

I feel like discussions such as these here always boil down to how people define racism

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OP and his dad are simply talking past each other in that case

 

[Samanosuke Akechi]

. RacistEra?

 

[Aureon]

I don't think you can be racist to white people but you can be a dick to anyone.

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You absolutely can.
However, the united states (and all of western) has issues of systematic and cultural racism, neither of which apply to white people as they're the far majority.

And the consequences of a single person being racist aren't the consequences of a society as a whole being racist.

 

[Opposable]

If a white person is a minority somewhere in the world I could see there potentially being racism. It may not be racism in the sense of harmful sterotypes or life-ruining situations etc but in terms of isolating or something I could see that happening

 

[Kotto]

I'm not sure what more I can do other than calling out the people in my life who have said things I've found to be racist. It's one of the few things I don't shy away from and feel needs to be confronted. I don't find humor in topics regarding race either so maybe I'm just boring in that sense.

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Like I said, being a proper ally and listening to minorities when they have something to say is your best choices. The moment you get defensive or make yourself a victim is when you're in the wrong. Trying to not be boring is not an requirement.

 

[R0b1n]

OP and his dad are simply talking past each other in that case

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As are many people here.

 

[Mona]

As are many people here.

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like you said its usually what happens lol

 

[Speevy]

When I ask my mother (who is 65, white, from Birmigham, Alabama) about racism, she can only recall what she saw growing up there as racism. She saw black people spat upon, called the n word (no I'm not gonna say it), beaten, in elementary, middle, and high school. She grew up with her own father who said hateful things.

So for her, if someone used hurtful words to her, spit on her, or mistreated her because she is white, that would be racism.

Most white people don't understand institutional racism because their ideas surrounding racism are based on the basic observations you might see in a movie on the subject.

 

[Mariolee]

OP and his dad are simply talking past each other in that case

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Oh 100%. That's why I have stopped responding to him.

 

[Speevy]

You absolutely can.
However, the united states (and all of western) has issues of systematic and cultural racism, neither of which apply to white people as they're the far majority.

And the consequences of a single person being racist aren't the consequences of a society as a whole being racist.

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Well I guess you can. I just have not personally observed this phenomenon. More importantly though, I do not believe that merely saying "White people are always acting this way." where it relates to the internet qualifies as racism, since it never infers the superiority of another race.

 

[Thunder11]

You absolutely can.
However, the united states (and all of western) has issues of systematic and cultural racism, neither of which apply to white people as they're the far majority.

And the consequences of a single person being racist aren't the consequences of a society as a whole being racist.

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This

 

[Kinthey]

Well I guess you can. I just have not personally observed this phenomenon. More importantly though, I do not believe that merely saying "White people are always acting this way." where it relates to the internet qualifies as racism, since it never infers the superiority of another race.

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Uh, doesn't it imply that other races are superior by not acting that way? After all that turn of phrase isn't used for positive behavior

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

So after the world witnesses a lynching of an innocent black man on camera, some of y'all still want to turn this thread into a redux of "Are all white people racist"

I'd be shocked if I didn't expect it

 

[Senator Rains]

Hard disagree with the majority of posters here that racism is only in play if their is a power dynamic/system. That is "systemic racism". Racism is racial hatred towards another race because of their race. I hate it so much when I see people combine the two into one when its not accurate. You can absolutely be racist against white people, the same as you can be racist against black people.

Handwaving it away/combining the two terms and downplaying actual racism is just a cover for you to not have to think and contemplate about your own inate bigotry/racism and beliefs that you hold imo.

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I agree.

Besides, defining racism only from the western society view point has always been kinda funny (and reeks of imperialism). It's as if racism is geographically moving. Racism is racism; dark skinned arabs face racism in Arab countries and its not because of slavery (calling them lazy, evil, superstitions etc), white skinned arabs face racism as well (calling them bloodtainted, welfare parasites, dirty).

That being said, I wouldn't call being surprised that a white murderer gets away with it in the US racism. It's just commentary on the fucked up justice system of the US which is evidently racist.

 

[weekev]

You can be racist against white people. Assuming that a story which included a modern day lynching was carried out by white people and they faced no justice until social media blew up the story is just fatigue from white privilege and is expected.

 

[Speevy]

Uh, doesn't it imply that other races are superior by not acting that way? After all that turn of phrase isn't used for positive behavior

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No, because the former is usually "White people are acting privileged." or "White people are always trying to get people arrested."

It's not things like "White people are stupid." or "White people are all criminals."

 

[Deleted member 2317]

These discussions always end up being so semantic.

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Ah, so you've read one of these threads online before as well?

To be fair, the entire topic is discussing semantics I guess.

 

[Beef Supreme]

Yes, you can be racist against white people. Saying otherwise is racism.

 

[Idde]

People saying you CAN be racist to white people are going to bring up literal definitions of the word or how slurs exist for people considered white.

They won't bring up the systemic power that comes with racism or the many benefits that society gives to white people.

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I hate to be a white guy in a thread full of people who experience racism in ways much worse than I ever will. But...is the literal defenition of the word just not true anymore? Have we switched to racially prejudiced in stead of 'racist to white people'?

And yeah, I fully and completely acknowledge the horrible effect that the racism of the 'race' in power has had throughout history and still has now. But has that redefined racism (literally?).

Because that's quite a conundrum. Because here in the Netherlands white girls get sexually harassed by Muslim boys because white girls are seem as 'promiscuous whores', so they don't have to be treated the same way as Muslim girls. And I'd say that's pretty racist, and not 'racially prejudiced'.

(don't take this to be Islamophobic, thank God it doesn't happen very often, and its not meant as a generalization, but I know two girls who this happened to)

 

[Kinthey]

No, because the former is usually "White people are acting privileged." or "White people are always trying to get people arrested."

It's not things like "White people are stupid." or "White people are all criminals."

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I've certainly seen it used that way. Guess depends on the context

 

[Deleted member 6230]

They're not. Like he said, there's a reason there are adjectives (systematic, individual) to describe the type of racism being discussed.

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Except it's silly to divorce them from each other lol

like if your understanding of Racism doesn't begin with knowing it's a hierarchal power structure then your understanding is likely incomplete and insufficient towards any sort meaningful analysis

 

[Lost Knight]

You can be racist to anyone, its ludicrous and unhelpful to say otherwise.

 

[Materia Man]

Well saying that one group of people get the benefit of nepotism on a systematic level aka white privilege, is worlds apart from saying all ___ people are ____ *insert negative stereotype here * '

Anybody trying to equate the two is being disingenuous.

 

[Arzak]

Ah, so you've read one of these threads online before as well?

To be fair, the entire topic is discussing semantics I guess.

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It does end up being a discussion of semantics, but I don't think I've seen a thread where the OP frames it that way.

I think you'd find a much more civil and productive discussion if the topic was simply the definition of racism, rather than can there be racism against white people or not. I get the feeling the most posters in this thread have similar views, but certain people get upset because they feel targeted by the way the discussion is being framed.

 

[Ryuelli]

Racism isn't just saying derogatory generalizations out loud.

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You're right. It's not just that, but it is also that.

Like others have said, you can't have an actual discussion on racism if you're not agreeing to the definition you're debating it on.
People in this thread are saying racism can only be systematic, but that's blatantly false. Anyone can be racist, especially at an individual level.

The best selling dictionary in America says Racism can be any of the 3:
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism

3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Prejudice is defined as:

1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

2a(1) : preconceived judgment or opinion
(2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge

b : an instance of such judgment or opinion
c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

 

[Deleted member 64609]

Pulling out dictionary definitions is pretty much an instant L.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I personally dislike the active insistence that racism and racial prejudice are different and that the former only applies when systemic issues are involved because I think most people do not distinguish between the two and so you're just adding a pointless semantics arguement over the specific language that ends up muddying the conversation and creating pointless arguements. That's why I prefer separating them on the basis of individual vs systemic racism because it makes it abundantly clear what the difference is rather than trying to create an ultimately pointess arguement over what the best definition of racism is that'll only confuse people and make clear communication more difficult

As an engineer, I see the same issue plaguing discussions over science related issues where there's a difference between the scientific definition and the colloquial one. Science at a high level requires a certain level of precision and so it is important to be able to quickly and efficiently distinguish between concepts through single words, but I think when people try to force these definitions into a more casual setting it just ends up pointlessly muddying the water. Like if someone asked for a fruit as a snack and I gave them a cucumber they'd have every reason to say I didn't get what I asked for because the context means they were clearly asking for one in the colliqual sense, where a cucumber is not considered a fruit, rather than the technical scientific sense where a cucumber is the seed bearing part of a flowering plant and is thus a fruit in that sense.

 

[Zaheer]

His retort will always be the same, "Mariolee, that's racist! You call me racist when I say black people are lazy, but I can't call you racist when you say something like that about white people?"

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I swear, PoC who say shit like this are some of the weirdest and pathetic motherfuckers on the planet.

This place is turning into a fucking joke. Fuck all of you who say people can't be racist towards white people. Hypocritical scum

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[skycamefalling]

Of course one can be racist against white people. But, white people don't face systemic or institutional racism in the US.

 

[Kotto]

And as predicted, the literal definitions are coming out

I hate to be a white guy in a thread full of people who experience racism in ways much worse than I ever will. But...is the literal defenition of the word just not true anymore? Have we switched to racially prejudiced in stead of 'racist to white people'?

And yeah, I fully and completely acknowledge the horrible effect that the racism of the 'race' in power has had throughout history and still has now. But has that redefined racism (literally?).

Because that's quite a conundrum. Because here in the Netherlands white girls get sexually harassed by Muslim boys because white girls are seem as promiscuous whores, so they don't have to be treated the same way as Muslim girls. And I'd say that's pretty racist, and not 'racially prejudiced'.

(don't take this to be Islamophobic, thank God it doesn't happen very often, and its not meant as a generalization, but I know two girls who this happened to)

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The literal definition of the word doesn't address the context of racism, the power structures, benefits white people get, and so on. The literal definition means nothing when it just paints the word as ANYONE can be racist and a racist black person is as harmful as a racist white person. It doesn't go over any of that context.

Also, "Muslim boys" can literally describe anyone lmao. Muslims are followers of Islam, not what you think it is 😂😂😂

 

[TaySan]

I personally dislike the active insistence that racism and racial prejudice are different and that the former only applies when systemic issues are involved because I think most people do not distinguish between the two and so you're just adding a pointless semantics arguement over the specific language that ends up muddying the conversation and creating pointless arguements. That's why I prefer separating them on the basis of individual vs systemic racism because it makes it abundantly clear what the difference is rather than trying to create an ultimately pointess arguement over what the best definition of racism is that'll only confuse people and make clear communication more difficult

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I agree. OP's father needs to understand that racism against white people doesn't have the same weight as racism against minorities in the US.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

I personally dislike the active insistence that racism and racial prejudice are different and that the former only applies when systemic issues are involved because I think most people do not distinguish between the two and so you're just adding a pointless semantics arguement over the specific language that ends up muddying the conversation and creating pointless arguements. That's why I prefer separating them on the basis of individual vs systemic racism because it makes it abundantly clear what the difference is rather than trying to create an ultimately pointess arguement over what the best definition of racism is that'll only confuse people and make clear communication more difficult

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I think this is bad because racial prejudice that individual perpetuates is also systemic and immediately feeds back into other societal systems.

 

[skycamefalling]

The literal definition of the word doesn't address the context of racism, the power structures, benefits white people get, and so on. The literal definition means nothing when it just paints the word as ANYONE can be racist and a racist black person is as harmful as a racist white person. It doesn't go over any of that context.

Also, "Muslim boys" can literally describe anyone lmao. Muslims are followers of Islam, not what you think it is 😂😂😂

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Its not supposed to. We have other words and concepts to describe the nuances of white privilege and institutional racism.

 

[Z-Beat]

No, because the former is usually "White people are acting privileged."

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Being classified as white is straight up gaining privilege. There are plenty of people who weren't considered white right up until they were. Like I said before, it's basically a club

 

[Mona]

Pulling out dictionary definitions is pretty much an instant L.

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the only winning move is not to play