“Why can you be racist against white people?”

[Mariolee]

This comes up time from time with my conservative Asian dad. I see some white trash like the guys who murdered Mr. Arbery, they show the pictures of the assailants and I make a comment like "of course they're white." Or I'll see the protestors gathered together saying they feel oppressed and I'll state they have no idea what oppression is because of their "white privilege".

His retort will always be the same, "Mariolee, that's racist! You call me racist when I say black people are lazy, but I can't call you racist when you say something like that about white people?"

What do you usually say to people if they say this, or if you agree why?

First of all I disagree that I'm being racist, and that it's more of a critical generalization but I'll concede that point considering that this is a similar argument conservatives try to co-opt in their racist arguments.

Typically, I usually say that being racist towards a minority is like kicking someone when they're down. Minorities have been so oppressed whether it's slavery or the modern day institutional racism in play every day. White people have had it pretty fucking good for most of history including the modern day, so I think they can handle some criticism.

In addition, minorities don't usually act on their "racist" impressions of white people, whereas certain (obviously not all, don't you start) white people literally take those racist ideas to heart and go murdering minorities and claim self-defense.

What do you think?

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Just say crazy white people to make offended people feel better.

 

[nsilvias]

its not so much that one can be racist towards white people but that people can fight back at their oppressors in some way in an environment where they are a minority and have no power.

 

[Aftervirtue]

Symbolic violence, is embedded into the syntax of the language we utilize in order to perceive, understand, form and ultimately undermine "meaningful" opinions on a topic such as systemic racism.

Its how in the ordinary course of events a normal white citizen who, when presented with the obvious evidence of the killing of an unarmed black male, can retort "he must have been in the wrong and take it as a "priori" that the burden be on the dead to prove his innocence. He accepts by virtue of the symbolic violence inheret to our society (blacks are thugs, cops are good and so on), the conditions that which give way to us being skeptical aka ""just asking questions" and unsympathetic to victims.

This is how they stifle conversation and control the parameters for discussion. This is a form of real power underlying the physical reality around us.

And this is how we can justify saying white people are racist.... and I say this as a white male.

 

[Speevy]

I don't think you can be racist to white people but you can be a dick to anyone.

 

[olubode]

His retort will always be the same, "Mariolee, that's racist! You call me racist when I say black people are lazy, but I can't call you racist when you say something like that about white people?"

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If this is the answer that anyone give in that situation, they aren't serious.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I don't think you can marginalize whatever race happens to be in a position of power but can definitely profile and make premature judgments about them which is still bad

 

[Deleted member 18944]

What do you usually say to people if they say this, or if you agree why?

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Racism is based on power. If you say white people can't season their food, that's not racism (its big facts), that's more akin to "racial prejudice."

When you are racially prejudiced against a group of people, AND you have power to back it up, that results in oppression and discrimination, aka racism.

Reverse racism is a myth.

 

[Everybody Lies]

Individuals can be racist toward any race if that race is the main motivator of their hatred. Institutionally it is a different story.

 

[Potterson]

I say "shut the fuck up, if you dont think that cultural and historical context matters then you don't deserve to have an opinion about racism" and I go away.

 

[EdibleKnife]

These things are about power and the context of not just history but the present day. In the context of the modern world particularly the US, the foundations for many of the systems we rely on today start from the oppression of a minority class. Because of that you can be prejudiced against white people but not many things in terms of language or systems has a context of harm towards white people in specific. When your dad says: "Black people are lazy" he's repeating a talking point used for generations to justify disenfranchising, abusing and oppressing black people. Not just making them uncomfortable but outright leading to genocide, sterilization, lynching, etc. "White privilege" doesn't carry that same history or weight. It's not a judgement of character but an indictment of the systems that have been set up. It's not about a call to cull white people or deny them their civil rights either which makes it distinctly different from statements like "Blacks are lazy/stupid/criminals" etc which are statements that are usually always followed up with an appeal to perpetuate the disenfranchisement of black people (i.e. Blacks are lazy, therefore they don't deserve welfare. Blacks are criminals, therefore they shouldn't be allowed to marry my child). It's a commentary on the reality of the situation and a call to recognize the contradictions in how the systems we have work for white supremacy. When people say "white privilege" they rarely ever mean that white people face zero problems in society nor that white people should legislatively be denied their person-hood, autonomy or human rights but that for society whiteness is the status quo and everything else is "other" or even "lesser". White people who suffer are suffering because of the systems created, maintained and run by other white people and not by minorities.

 

[Deleted member 31133]

I don't believe you can be racist against white people.

White people are the oppressors in western society and all white people benefit from white privilege. White people are not the victims.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Individuals can be racist towards people of any race, including white. But individual racism has always been a minor and relatively unimportant issue compared to systemic and institutional racism, and the current system is very much geared in favor of white people to the detriment of everyone else. And as a white person myself, I'd argue white privilege is a phenomenon in the white community that exists as a result of systemic and institutional racism, which isn't the same as arguing it's an inherent trait all white people have. White people aren't naturally inclined to have white privilege, we're just the ones who have it because we're the ones who currently control the institutions. A white person born and raised in China or Japan would almost certainly have a completely different perspective because white people aren't the dominant group in those places.

 

[Aurica]

I recommend reading How to Be an Antiracist by Ibram X. Kendi. It changed my perspective a bit on this.

 

[Team_Feisar]

You, as an Individual, can technically be racist against white people.
But as long as you don't have the socially and/or politically backed (systematic) power to actually oppress or hurt those you are racist against (and in the US only white people have that kind of power), it's in a totally different ballpark.

 

[chrisPjelly]

You can absolutely be racists towards white people, but in a situation where they're the majority, it's not going to be as systematic obviously. I'm sure any Caucasian living abroad will have their fair share of shitty racism (and yes, fetishisation of their complexion can also count)

 

[Handicapped Duck]

I hear that from people, they say, "why can black people call us crackers?! That's like the N-word for white people!" I shake my damn head, you can't get through to these people. Yeah it's technically racist, but considering white people are the majority in a lot of countries, the worst that can happen is a little hurt feelings and that's it.

 

[N64Controller]

Saying "Of course they're white" as a reaction to someone being attacked in the street is not the same as saying it in reaction to the fact that assailiants got away scot free and charges were dropped. I don't think your examples are all equal. Assuming the criminal is of a particular skin color is racial prejudice, talking about white privilege isn't because it's tangible and objective.

Racism as a concept has a lot to do with power, so it's hard to actually argue that you can be racist against the ethnic group "in power". You can still be prejudiced, and I don't think that's ok no matter where you stand in. White privilege is a thing everyone should be able to talk about because it affects everyone. The classic examples are like the fact that a poor black child and a poor white child are both poor, they both start behind in life but the reality is that the poor black child will most likely have to work a lot harder in order to get out of his situation. It doesn't invalidate the suffering and struggles of the poor white child but it puts things into perspective because the black child will have to deal with institutionalized racism, and the white child won't have to.

So someone laughing at the misery of a poor white family because they have white privilege or assuming a white girl can't play basketball (yeah crazy examples) would be racial prejudice, because they assume that because someone is of a certain ethnicity they can't struggle or practice some activities. But that doesn't make them racist I think.

People that are using the types of arguments as to how you can be racist towards white people either don't understand racism or are just using it as bad faith. It's sad too because it leads to so many shitty things, like when Black Lives Matter came up, a lot of people went up in arms because they felt it meant "ONLY" Black Lives Matter, when in actuality it's clearly Black Lives Matter TOO.

 

[TaySan]

Systematic and institutional racism has more power than individual racism. We are not victims of racism in the same way as other races in Western society. Mind you i don't think it's okay to be bigoted towards anybody, but it's not the same ballpark.

 

[Bundy]

You can absolutely be racists towards white people, but in a situation where they're the majority, it's not going to be as systematic obviously.

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Yep. The shit I've heard when I was a kid.... man :/

 

[Ashlette]

I say "shut the fuck up, if you dont think that cultural and historical context matters then you don't deserve to have an opinion about racism" and I go away.

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You're right. But that will anger those people, making you wrong somehow.

Facts over feelings.

 

[haziq]

It's because racism is often confused with bigotry.

Long answer: anyone can be bigoted. Racism, by it's own definition, is a whole different beast because it involves a power dynamic. To be racist is to discriminate based on race. And to discriminate, this have to be in control of something: an institution, a service or an opportunity, things like that.

For instance, let's say I'm a banker, and a Hispanic couple comes in asking for a mortgage loan. They meet all objective qualifications to get the loan. But I, for the sake of this example, don't like Hispanics. Now, that is technically separate from my occupation as a banker. But then, based on that bigotry, I decide to sabotage the process somehow and get their application revoked. I just used my own bigotry as motive to keep someone from accessing a service that grants funding for folks who want to enter the housing market.

It also affects what the expectation of "fair" is when it comes to any interaction with an institution. For instance, the police have to treat everyone in the public the same as part of their job, regardless of what personal views they might hold on certain groups of people. In practice, the opposite is true. What the police typically consider "fair treatment" depends on the cop and who they're interacting with. Again, there's a power dynamic at play here: the police have a direct effect on people's day to day lives with whatever actions they choose to take in the name of the law. So when a bigoted cop decides to kill a Black man unjustly, that extends beyond that individual cop; that cop represents the larger institution and the power that institution has.

And here's the main thing: White people control the major institutions in America: law enforcement, education, health care, finance, you name it. So, as minorities, we can't be racist to White people because we, collectively, don't run a goddamn thing. We can be bigoted towards White people, but the power dynamic is again at play. Minorities have to punch up, and anything we do is likely not gonna have as much impact on White people compared to how their actions affect us. That's why the complaints about "Karen" are so hilarious. For the vast majority of White women who are called that, their actual lives won't be affected beyond them being ridiculed for a small moment in time; but those same White women, as people who are part of the party that control the institutions, will have massive impact on the lives of people of color.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You, as an Individual, can technically be racist against white people.
But as long as you don't have the socially and/or politically backed (systematic) power to actually oppress or hurt those you are racist against (and in the US only white people have that kind of power), it's in a totally different ballpark.

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Yeah. I feel like it's important to distinguish between racism on the level of an individual and on a systemic level. Individual racism always sucks and is bad, but it's generally not actually a big deal or more than a minor annoyance unless it's being backed up by wider systemic racism. A black business owner could think all white people are evil and refuse to hire many white people and shut down advancement opportunities for the few who do work for him as a result and I'd argue that in this context this is technically a form of racism (Note that this only applies if their reasoning is specifically because they think all white people are bad. If they're prioritizing minority advancement and hiring because they want to provide more opportunities to people who objectively in a disadvantaged position to start with that's obviously a different story even if the end result looks similar). But since the wider system we live in provides so many more opportunities and advantages to white people, the net result of this is that white people will just find work with someone else very easily and be no worse off in the end because we have so many more options and opportunities in the current society. Institutional racism on the other hand can be incrediby damaging even when individual racism is pretty much non existent, and the level of damage is also much worse in general.

 

[DanteMenethil]

There's two conflating definition of racism. One that racism means to discriminate over race and the other one means to marginalize over race-based power dynamics. Your Dad knows the former but not the latter. And by definition of the latter you can't marginalize the group in power so in that sense you can't be racist toward white people.

 

[Deleted member 16908]

It's because racism is often confused with bigotry.

Long answer: anyone can be bigoted. Racism, by it's own definition, is a whole different beast because it involves a power dynamic. To be racist is to discriminate based on race. And to discriminate, this have to be in control of something: an institution, a service or an opportunity, things like that.

For instance, let's say I'm a banker, and a Hispanic couple comes in asking for a mortgage loan. They meet all objective qualifications to get the loan. But I, for the sake of this example, don't like Hispanics. Now, that is technically separate from my occupation as a banker. But then, based on that bigotry, I decide to sabotage the process somehow and get their application revoked. I just used my own bigotry as motive to keep someone from accessing a service that grants funding for folks who want to enter the housing market.

It also affects what the expectation of "fair" is when it comes to any interaction with an institution. For instance, the police have to treat everyone in the public the same as part of their job, regardless of what personal views they might hold on certain groups of people. In practice, the opposite is true. What the police typically consider "fair treatment" depends on the cop and who they're interacting with. Again, there's a power dynamic at play here: the police have a direct effect on people's day to day lives with whatever actions they choose to take in the name of the law. So when a bigoted cop decides to kill a Black man unjustly, that extends beyond that individual cop; that cop represents the larger institution and the power that institution has.

And here's the main thing: White people control the major institutions in America: law enforcement, education, health care, finance, you name it. So, as minorities, we can't be racist to White people because we, collectively, don't run a goddamn thing. We can be bigoted towards White people, but the power dynamic is again at play. Minorities have to punch up, and anything we do is likely not gonna have as much impact on White people compared to how their actions affect us. That's why the complaints about "Karen" are so hilarious. For the vast majority of White women who are called that, their actual lives won't be affected beyond them being ridiculed for a small moment in time; but those same White women, as people who are part of the party that control the institutions, will have massive impact on the lives of people of color.

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This is an excellent explanation.

 

[smileyforall220]

Hard disagree with the majority of posters here that racism is only in play if their is a power dynamic/system. That is "systemic racism". Racism is racial hatred towards another race because of their race. I hate it so much when I see people combine the two into one when its not accurate. You can absolutely be racist against white people, the same as you can be racist against black people.

Handwaving it away/combining the two terms and downplaying actual racism is just a cover for you to not have to think and contemplate about your own inate bigotry/racism and beliefs that you hold imo.

 

[julian]

In your example I feel like there's a difference between making a generalization about how all people of a particular race behave ("black people are lazy") and making an assumption as to the race of a perpetrator of a crime ("let me guess, he's white"). It's just not comparable in terms of how broadly you're generalizing.
For example, if you tell me there was a mass shooting today - I'm gonna assume the person was white. It doesn't mean I think all white people are mass shooters.

 

[Strike]

Individuals can be racist toward any race if that race is the main motivator of their hatred. Institutionally it is a different story.

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Pretty much this.

 

[Nepenthe]

What do you usually say to people if they say this

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I live primarily around black people and we all understand what we mean when we criticize crazy-ass white people, so I never have to actually confront this question in real life.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

Hard disagree with the majority of posters here that racism is only in play if their is a power dynamic/system. That is "systemic racism". Racism is racial hatred towards another race because of their race. I hate it so much when I see people combine the two into one when its not accurate. You can absolutely be racist against white people, the same as you can be racist against black people.

Handwaving it away/combining the two terms and downplaying actual racism is just a cover for you to not have to think and contemplate about your own inate bigotry/racism and beliefs that you hold imo.

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sorry but they're right. Racism is a hierarchal power structure. Though I agree that individuals can be racially bigoted towards others whether or not that bias has a power structure supporting it

 

[GameAddict411]

Individuals can be racist toward any race if that race is the main motivator of their hatred. Institutionally it is a different story.

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You can't separate both like that. Maybe in a vacuum but in the United States, you can't be racist to white people. You can prejudiced and hateful towards them for sure, but not racist. Racism implies that believe that you are somehow superior to the particular race you are being prejudiced against. This stems from institutionalized racism like you mentioned. This belief of white people being superior is passed down fro generation to generation as well. Generalizing white people faults and grouping them together doesn't imply that.

 

[Mad_Titan86]

This place is turning into a fucking joke. Fuck all of you who say people can't be racist towards white people. Hypocritical scum

 

[Nepenthe]

Hard disagree with the majority of posters here that racism is only in play if their is a power dynamic/system.

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The only reason racism is a thing is because the arbitrary classification of different "races," with one race coincidentally being considered "better" than the others, was created specifically to reinforce existing power dynamics in the first place.

That's the only damn reason "race" as a concept exists. It's not genetic, nor are classifications even consistently applied across different cultures. It's a belief system.

 

[Z-Beat]

 

[Arzak]

These discussions always end up being so semantic. If the definition of racism is shifting (no issue with words meanings changing over time) then we need new terms to fill the gaps.

 

[Ryuelli]

sorry but they're right.

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They're not. Like he said, there's a reason there are adjectives (systematic, individual) to describe the type of racism being discussed.

 

[Order]

This place is turning into a fucking joke. Fuck all of you who say people can't be racist towards white people. Hypocritical scum

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see this is why you can't be racist to white people

they do shit like this

just getting mad at people who actually experience racism and not listening

 

[Kyuuji]

This place is turning into a fucking joke. Fuck all of you who say people can't be racist towards white people. Hypocritical scum

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[Z-Beat]

Hard disagree with the majority of posters here that racism is only in play if their is a power dynamic/system. That is "systemic racism". Racism is racial hatred towards another race because of their race. I hate it so much when I see people combine the two into one when its not accurate. You can absolutely be racist against white people, the same as you can be racist against black people.

Handwaving it away/combining the two terms and downplaying actual racism is just a cover for you to not have to think and contemplate about your own inate bigotry/racism and beliefs that you hold imo.

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Here's the thing: being "white" is only in play when it's against other races. It's a club that people join when they need more members to stomp on someone else. Being white's a status symbol that can be revoked at any time.

Moreover people are only willing to remember this fact when it can be used as a deflection

 

[Ryuelli]

you can't be racist to white people.

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Absolute bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 23094]

I had no say in what race I was born as, so the idea that would be held against me for any reason seems wrong.

 

[Midgarian]

It's simple logic.

This applies to any social situation, big or small, whether it's about race or about other aspects.

A person or group who in a hegemonically dominant position, will hurt less or barely hurt at all from being insulted by a person or a group in a hegemonically inferior position.

If a dominant person mocks a weaker person, it's like rubbing salt in the wounds. If it's reversed then there's no wounds at all, the salt doesn't do anything. They aren't hurting in the first place.

 

[Idde]

Of course you can be racist to white people. I find the redefining of 'racism' on here a bit weird. Racism at its core is making judgments about people based on their race, discriminating, and acting on it. So sure, people can be racist towards ANY race.

However, since white people have had it a lot easier throughout history. And any racism they might face has far, faaaar fewer negative consequences, racism towards white people is almost insignificant compared what it means to minorities. 99 percent of the time.

 

[Keldroc]

His retort will always be the same, "Mariolee, that's racist! You call me racist when I say black people are lazy, but I can't call you racist when you say something like that about white people?"

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"The difference is that what I said about white people is true."

Of course you can be racist to white people. I find the redefining of 'racism' on here a bit weird. Racism at its core is making judgments about people based on their race and acting on it. So sure, people can be racist towards ANY race.

However, since white people have had it a lot easier throughout history. And any racism they might face has far, faaaar fewer negative consequences, racism towards white people is almost insignificant compared what it means to minorities. 99 percent of the time.

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You can be racially prejudiced against white people, but racism really requires a power structure and systemic imbalance in favor of the racist party.

 

[Zygnosis]

Of course you can be racist against white people. Racism is based on the idea that there are different races. Whites are a race in that theory, thus you can be racist.

 

[Mona]

I hear that from people, they say, "why can black people call us crackers?! That's like the N-word for white people!" I shake my damn head, you can't get through to these people. Yeah it's technically racist, but considering white people are the majority in a lot of countries, the worst that can happen is a little hurt feelings and that's it.

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N word obviously has a fuckton more baggage too lol

 

[Deleted member 64609]

Trying to tell white Americans that non-white Americans can't be racist against them by chaining your definition to systemic racism is honesty futile and kind of corny tbh.

Everyone knows what the context is behind saying something like "of course they were white" when you read about a black jogger being literally hunted and shot dead in a nice neighborhood. If they take offense at it, they're just choosing not to acknowledge history or reality so you already know you're in for a lot of extra work. Even more so if they counter with their own full bore racism.

 

[Era Uma Vez]

I had no say in what race I was born as, so the idea that would be held against me for any reason seems wrong.

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Yes, but at the same time, if you are born white, you reap the privilege that comes with it, without having a say as well.
I agree with the unpopular opinion here, though.
You can absolutely be racist towards white people, but that's because, to me, racial prejudice/antagonism = racism.

 

[Nepenthe]

I had no say in what race I was born as, so the idea that would be held against me for any reason seems wrong.

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I had no say in being born American or straight, and I really...REALLY...don't care if people shit on Americans or straight people, even if they use that horrific qualifier "all." Shit be funny.

 

[Kotto]

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So accurate even today. 😂

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the poor white people and they're struggle against random folks on the internet calling out the shit they do?

I had no say in what race I was born as, so the idea that would be held against me for any reason seems wrong.

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You do have a choice to either be a supportive Ally or just sit where you're at right now with a indifferent and dismissive attitude towards topics like these.