“Undefeated” Shows What A Superman Game Could Look Like

Darkstorne · Dec 27, 2020

astro said:
No, as I said in my first sentence, there are countless ways for him to have enemies that he needs to use his full power against.

Then you'd intersect that with levels based around set piece rescues.

It does not need to be open world, too.

So the main gameplay loop is you consistently fighting opponents that require your full power, or set piece rescues. It stops feeling impressive if you're constantly doing that, which is the challenge with creating a Superman game. And open world is pretty much essential for a superhero game - that's just what people want, like the videos in the OP. But again, with Superman, the destructive power people want to feel and play with doesn't mesh with the character. Ludo-narrative dissonance would be back in journalism's daily repertoire =P

Protoman200X · Dec 27, 2020

bsigg said:
Isn't the bigger issue Superman stories? Gameplay seems like something that's been possible for a while but writing a compelling story that accompanies a competent gameplay loop sounds rough.

I find the best way to cement the story moments is when Clark/Superman is doing is regular human activities, but you can have several story beats when both of his worlds clash. You know, picking up groceries while working on an article for the Daily Planet, taking a flight to Kansas to visit Mom and Pop Kent for Christmas dinner, that sort of thing. You can do a lot when you have some sombre moments in between the sequences of rescuing a crashing airplane or sending Solaris into the stratosphere.

As for villains? As much as I want to go with the heavy hitters, I feel having a mid-tier Superman villain to start off with would be a good way to ease players into the setting of the game, such as Titano or Toy Man, but then you can have a curve ball and introduce Mr. Mxyzptlk as the central antagonist to wreak havock.

Black_Trace · Dec 27, 2020

This looks cool in theory but how do you build gameplay around that? Superman is supposed to be a hero, he can't be destroying the environments he is supposed to be protecting. It would be like The Man of Steel ending times 100.

Sparks · Dec 27, 2020

Super cool demo, but every studio I've worked at has had similar concept tech ect. but it always ends up too expensive or has too many regressive issues that causes other things to be fucked up. You can even see when he does the full open world video, he doesn't show any destructible... because even in a bare world with just basic terrain it gets too expensive.

unknownspectator · Dec 27, 2020

Mivey said:
What if the gun has Kryptonite bullets? 🤔

thing is, this is not needed. I feel that part of the appeal of playing a superman game is having mooks trying to kill you with regular bullets and failing.

SofNascimento · Dec 27, 2020

NinjaScooter said:
I think the difference is the challenges involved in a Superman game surround the challenge of creating an enjoyable gameplay loop and mechanics to support an entire game. Not saying its impossible. With what you are describing with Wonder Woman, its apples and oranges. Comics and movies are much more similar mediums, so creating an interesting and appealing Wonder Woman movie isn't all that different from the challenge of creating an interesting and appealing Wonder Woman comic arc, which has been happening for decades.

I think it's the same thing. With Wonder Woman there were always reasons to support why a movie with her couldn't work. Of course creating a game is different than creating a movie (just like a major blockbuster is different than a comic book), but the underline cause that makes people think a Superman game is too hard is the same, a lack of imagination.

ToddBonzalez · Dec 27, 2020

The problem is players will want to fly through shit and use their laser vision to melt through buildings and whatnot because it's fun. How do you make a Superman game and not a Homelander (the Boys) game?

Platy · Dec 27, 2020

Takamura-San said:
Nice, now develop a game concept around a hero that is on god mode, and can't die. Also that penalizes your for destroying the city, and still fun.

it is super easy to make, but nobody wants a TellTale like Superman Game, they want to punch stuff =P

NinjaScooter · Dec 27, 2020

SofNascimento said:
I think it's the same thing. With Wonder Woman there were always reasons to support why a movie with her couldn't work. Of course creating a game is different than creating a movie (just like a major blockbuster is different than a comic book), but the underline cause that makes people think a Superman game is too hard is the same, a lack of imagination.

I think that's reductive. I think anybody who thought a compelling Wonder Woman story couldn't translate over from the comics to movies wasn't "lacking imagination" so much as they were being dense. The question of how you translate over Superman into games while keeping it true to the character are more complicated than that.

SofNascimento · Dec 27, 2020

est1992 said:
Yeah it definitely comes down to the challenges they present. That's why I feel a Superman game should be like all the other superhero games, an action one.

I know people on this forum think a Superman game should be about saving people and making choices and whatnot, but that just isn't what the general populace would want or expect out of a Superman game title. They want to punch bad guys and save the world.

I remember a time when people would say that an Avengers movie couldn't work. Look where we are now. A Superman game is entirely feasible, it's just that people overthink it. Like way too much.

My impression is that a lot of people think of the Arkham games or Spider Man, change those heroes for Superman and think: well, his powers would break the game therefore it's impossible. Well, of course a Superman game won't work in those frameworks, so what yo have to do is change that.

Chumunga64 · Dec 27, 2020

Superman Returns had the right idea

the city should be the healthy bar and it forces you to play like superman but I guess execs would be scared that you're hampering the potential fun and just make it less interesting like how the PS4 Spider-man game advertised as making you feel like spider-man but it's more like you're playing as someone with spider-man's powers without all the responsibility

imagine if that game had timers to get to somewhere (like FEAST meetings or helping Octavius) but you're sidetracked by villains and you have to beat them in time and if you don't, there's no game over, you just have to confront everyone you let down by being late

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

Darkstorne said:
So the main gameplay loop is you consistently fighting opponents that require your full power, or set piece rescues. It stops feeling impressive if you're constantly doing that, which is the challenge with creating a Superman game. And open world is pretty much essential for a superhero game - that's just what people want, like the videos in the OP. But again, with Superman, the destructive power people want to feel and play with doesn't mesh with the character. Ludo-narrative dissonance would be back in journalism's daily repertoire =P

It meshes fine, you just have to make the story viable for it. If Metropolis is under a full scale alien invasion, no one is going to bat an eye if Superman blows up a car.

And as far as the gameplay loop goes, not every single enemy has to be Darkseid level. Part of the fun is crafting challenges through different methods. You could have hordes of enemies that, individually pose no threat, but when they swarm him it becomes an issue.

Like in Spider-Man, a single thug is nothing to him. But throw in about twenty and it becomes a problem. Then you sprinkle in the boss battles.

It's just like any other game guys lol

Black_Trace said:
This looks cool in theory but how do you build gameplay around that? Superman is supposed to be a hero, he can't be destroying the environments he is supposed to be protecting. It would be like The Man of Steel ending times 100.

Like I said above, if the circumstances call for it, it won't matter. If the world is under an immense threat like an alien invasion or something, nobody would care if Superman does some damage.

Sparks said:
Super cool demo, but every studio I've worked at has had similar concept tech ect. but it always ends up too expensive or has too many regressive issues that causes other things to be fucked up. You can even see when he does the full open world video, he doesn't show any destructible... because even in a bare world with just basic terrain it gets too expensive.

I don't think full scale destruction is necessary. I mean, they had plenty of destruction in Batman Arkham Knight, something on that scale could work just fine.

FCJO · Dec 27, 2020

~~Nintendo~~ Warner Bros. hire this man!

Superman is my favorite superhero so seeing a game of him finally materialize would make me very happy. This one in particular is shaping very nice.

KORNdog · Dec 27, 2020

It was never a case of whether anyone could make a good playing superman game. He's like the perfect character for gameplay systems and upgrade skill trees and all that jazz. The difficulty with superman in games is he's practically invincible and is good beyond measure.

Not being bound by those character rules basically let's the developer make a third Prototype game where you can fly and call it a day. Making a superman game where you're supposed to be practically invincible while still having a sense of challenge without some arbitrary bullshit like "all the enemies have kryptonite tipped bullets" or something and still following the rules of superman...that's why it's so hard.

I suppose they could go the Zack Snyder approach to superman and just give him a general disregard for human life? That would fix one aspect of it. But maintaining challenge when you have God mode switched on is a tough ask for any dev.

Maybe these guys will figure something out...but because this isn't an actual superman game. I'm guessing they'll just give their protagonist a health bar and call it a day.

SofNascimento · Dec 27, 2020

NinjaScooter said:
I think that's reductive. I think anybody who thought a compelling Wonder Woman story couldn't translate over from the comics to movies wasn't "lacking imagination" so much as they were being dense. The question of how you translate over Superman into games while keeping it true to the character are more complicated than that.

That's easy to say now, but it was not an uncommon option 10, or even 5 years ago. Also, another thing I believe they have in common is this idea of "true to the character". There are many takes on Superman and a game will simply be one more, it doesn't have to match everyone's expectations of what Superman should be about. I mean, the Arkham games are highly regarded and there are people who think they are not great takes on Batman.

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

SofNascimento said:
My impression is that a lot of people think of the Arkham games or Spider Man, change those heroes for Superman and think: well, his powers would break the game therefore it's impossible. Well, of course a Superman game won't work in those frameworks, so what yo have to do is change that.

Lol it's a bit frustrating because it just seems like a lack of thought. Almost like trolling lol.

Maybe it's just because I'm a Superman fan and read the comics and that thought would never even cross my mind.

Darknight · Dec 27, 2020

Wow all that interaction and destruction looks great....but do we want a game where Superman is destroying Metropolis?

Deleted member 51691 · Dec 27, 2020

SageShinigami said:
I think my problem with WB isn't just that they can't get a Superman game out. It's that to my knowledge there's no Wonder Woman game in the works either. Or an Aquaman game. Or a Shazam game. Like, there's so many games they COULD do and all we get is Batman over and over again. Gotham Knights is awesome because I love those characters, but...make some other stuff.

It's not like Marvel is putting out a bunch of amazing solo superhero games either. It's pretty much just Spider-Man and ensemble games

Imran · Dec 27, 2020

I don't think the question has ever been, can you make this game mechanically. Sure you can.

The question is, can you make this game fun? And the answer can't be "Yes for $60 and 20 minutes."

I KILL PXLS · Dec 27, 2020

est1992 said:
It's more of an example of the kinds of things people complain about. "How do you make flight fun?" Its looks fun here. "You can't do all that destruction" well they are here.

To be fair, when was the last time there were a lot of people saying that? The PS2 era maybe? The Superman Returns game proved flight could be done back during the 360, and Hulk Ultimate Destruction proved open world destruction could be done even further back on the PS2/Xbox. When people talk about how hard it is to make a fun Superman game, they're talking about the combat and the balance designers will have to strike between making the game challenging, while still giving you the OP Superman fantasy.

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

KORNdog said:
It was never a case of whether anyone could make a good playing superman game. He's like the perfect character for gameplay systems and upgrade skill trees and all that jazz. The difficulty with superman in games is he's practically invincible and is good beyond measure.

Not being bound by those character rules basically let's the developer make a third Prototype game where you can fly and call it a day. Making a superman game where you're supposed to be practically invincible while still having a sense of challenge without some arbitrary bullshit like "all the enemies have kryptonite tipped bullets" or something and still following the rules of superman...that's why it's so hard.

I suppose they could go the Zack Snyder approach to superman and just give him a general disregard for human life? That would fix one aspect of it. But maintaining challenge when you have God mode switched on is a tough ask for any dev.

Maybe these guys will figure something out...but because this isn't an actual superman game. I'm guessing they'll just give their protagonist a health bar and call it a day.

Superman isn't invincible. He has an entire rogues gallery that could kill him, and a lot have. They all each have their own underlings that give Superman a run for his money.

His rogues gallery is so big in fact, that a game wouldn't even need Kryptonite. Most villains just beat his ass.

Darknight said:
Wow all that interaction and destruction looks great....but do we want a game where Superman is destroying Metropolis?

It's not really about the player running around doing it just cause. It's about the possibility of it during fights, and other set pieces.

astro · Dec 27, 2020

Darkstorne said:
So the main gameplay loop is you consistently fighting opponents that require your full power, or set piece rescues. It stops feeling impressive if you're constantly doing that, which is the challenge with creating a Superman game. And open world is pretty much essential for a superhero game - that's just what people want, like the videos in the OP. But again, with Superman, the destructive power people want to feel and play with doesn't mesh with the character. Ludo-narrative dissonance would be back in journalism's daily repertoire =P

No it doesn't. If the combat is varied enough it would be perfectly fine. And Superman could unlock and learn new techniques as he goes rather than powering up in a traditional way, new ways he imagines to utilize his full powers.

This is not a difficult problem to solve.

Open world is REALLY not essential in any way, either. Wide linear and focused levels would, imo, work much better and be refreshing. The open world template has been dragged to death.

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

Imran said:
I don't think the question has ever been, can you make this game mechanically. Sure you can.

The question is, can you make this game fun? And the answer can't be "Yes for $60 and 20 minutes."

I think you definitely can. Not only could you give Superman a combat system and enough enemies to make that gameplay loop fun, but you can also easily throw in other aspects of his universe like investigative journalism, saving people from distasters, and other various "open world superhero" things to make it a worthy $60, 25 hour game.

Ask your Kinda Funny coworker gameovergreggy, I'm sure he could talk about a ton of different Superman game ideas.

I KILL PXLS said:
To be fair, when was the last time there were a lot of people saying that? The PS2 era maybe? The Superman Returns game proved flight could be done back during the 360, and Hulk Ultimate Destruction proved open world destruction could be done even further back on the PS2/Xbox. When people talk about how hard it is to make a fun Superman game, they're talking about the combat and the balance designers will have to strike between making the game challenging, while still giving you the OP Superman fantasy.

Look through the past Superman game threads, it's said a lot lol.

MegaManTrigger · Dec 27, 2020

People talking about nerf as if there isn't a mechanic that already covers this: Superman needing solar energy/acting as a constantly charging solar battery in order to remain powerful.

I've been saying it for years: give Superman a gauge that combines HP with Stamina. In other words, using up abilities costs him the solar gauge, and when it empties (without instant access to the sun), then he becomes much more vulnerable.

Carn · Dec 27, 2020

Addleburg said:
Exactly. These types of powers are begging for a sandbox where you can just go around destroying / fucking with stuff, which is inconsistent with what Superman would do. You'd basically have to take abilities away from players in certain situations or position Superman solely in areas where it's okay to destroy things with reckless abandon, i.e. not any inhabited cities.

Indeed. I would argue that Superman games are more a sort of puzzleboxes; as in, how to reach the winning gamestate within a set amount of time or without (too much) collateral damage.

GrrImAFridge · Dec 27, 2020

astro said:
Open world is REALLY not essential in any way, either. Wide linear and focused levels would, imo, work much better and be refreshing. The open world template has been dragged to death.

To your point, I was actually pleasantly surprised by the Avengers beta until it did a hard 180 from a linear, cinematic beat-'em-up to yet another example of why insisting upon MMO-inspired GaaS busywork isn't an inherently good idea.

Jmille99 · Dec 27, 2020

Platy said:
it is super easy to make, but nobody wants a TellTale like Superman Game, they want to punch stuff =P

Im not gonna lie - I would be down for an Asura's Wrath like experience with Superman.

Nephi215 · Dec 27, 2020

Mr_Zombie said:
Gameplay mechanics is one thing, but what people usually have in mind when talking about problems with Superman games is the challenge. In all those superhero games (Spider-Man, Batman, X-Men) you usually go around and beat up the thugs, and this type of enemies isn't nreally a danger for the Man od Steel (unless they all carry a chunk of Kryptonite).

Said that, that demo looks really good and fun.

Technically, thugs aren't a real threat to Spider-Man and his superhuman powers, so Spider-Man gets nerfed or you could say Spider-Man pulls his punches. However there are common super powered enemies like the Mr negative's demons that Spidey faces that poses more of a threat. There could be some equivalent of common enemies that would work for Superman like super powered aliens, Lex Luthor made Kryptonite powered robot, or Braniac powered robots etc that poses a reasonable threat to Superman. A Superman game could work.

HonestAbe · Dec 27, 2020

Get this dev the Tribes license. Looks so quick and smooth. Imagine a disclauncher /spinfuser taking the tree limbs off slicing thru the air or a mortar exploding the stuff.

just_myles · Dec 27, 2020

Getting dragonball vibew

KORNdog · Dec 27, 2020

[

est1992 said:
Superman isn't invincible. He has an entire rogues gallery that could kill him, and a lot have. They all each have their own underlings that give Superman a run for his money.

His rogues gallery is so big in fact, that a game wouldn't even need Kryptonite. Most villains just beat his ass.

So it would be a boss rush game then....Yeah, that sounds shit.

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

Nephi215 said:
Technically, thugs aren't a real threat to Spider-Man and his superhuman powers, so Spider-Man gets nerfed or you could say Spider-Man pulls his punches. However there are common super powered enemies like the Mr negative's demons that Spidey faces that poses more of a threat. There could be some equivalent of common enemies that would work for Superman like super powered aliens, Lex Luthor made Kryptonite powered robot, or Braniac powered robots etc that poses a reasonable threat to Superman. A Superman game could work.

Finally someone who understands lol

Bishop89 · Dec 27, 2020

That looked sick.

Love the hadouken

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

KORNdog said:
[

So it would be a boss rush game then....Yeah, that sounds shit.

If you would read some other comments in the thread, you'd see all the other things you can include in a Superman game. Every boss has their own henchmen who can overwhelm and beat Superman, so it's not a boss rush game. He also has a completely unique alter ego in Clark Kent that can be used for investigative journalism and whatnot. Throw in some random events, mysteries and other things you'd expect from an open word game, and it's fully realized.

You're just choosing to not think about the other things.

Jakenbakin · Dec 27, 2020

A game showing off flying and blowing shit up = Superman?

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

Jakenbakin said:
A game showing off flying and blowing shit up = Superman?

If you search there's a full demo online in a city that shows what they started on.

TripaSeca · Dec 27, 2020

If a superman game has this kind of destruction the slogan is done: save towns by wiping them!
Two endings: kill the bad guys or destroy things until run out of people to protect!

Elfgore · Dec 27, 2020

I've played both this and Megaton Rainfall. Both are enjoyable for about an hour or two at the most and then quickly become boring. It would take some legit design work to make a Superman game work for longer than that.

Golbez · Dec 27, 2020

Now I want a Superman game that will never happen 🤦‍♂️

Zaied · Dec 27, 2020

It's been such a long time since we've actually gotten any kind of Superman game that I'm open to almost anything at this point. In hindsight, it is a little unfortunate that the more serious attempts at creating Superman games came at a time when the hardware was probably at least two generations away from where it needed to be to really nail the physics and powerset that Superman demands. Even a more linear styled game like Shadow of Apokolips (my favorite Superman game) would've been interesting to see on PS3/360 hardware, never mind PS5/Series X.

Darknight · Dec 27, 2020

est1992 said:
It's not really about the player running around doing it just cause. It's about the possibility of it during fights, and other set pieces.

I think you're missing the point. That looks fun when you're doing that but you're not supposed to be doing that so the gameplay example doesn't really match up with how the game design would work and they're at odds with each other as a result. That's the problem with Superman games; the fun stuff that looks fun is stuff you really won't be doing so how do you design a game that is fun but at the core of it remains true to the character.

giancarlo123x · Dec 27, 2020

I want this

ScaleboundGOTY · Dec 27, 2020

Era: I want this
game releases with pop in and screen tearing
Era: I hate this

Alienous · Dec 27, 2020

I say this whenever I see the topic come up but I don't think a Superman game is a complicated thing to conceptualize.

I think you would be looking at a DBZ: Kakarot + Dead Rising hybrid. Have Metropolis move on a schedule, populated by civilians and 'psychopaths' (or Superman's Rogues Gallery).

Your failstate wouldn't be directly tied to Superman. Your 'lifebar' is depleted when you get smashed into buildings, but that being tied to injured civilians. You might use freeze breath on an enemy, or knock them into the sky, to carry civilians to the boundary of the fight arena to 'restore health'.

There is variety you would have to account for - perhaps puzzle solving related to stopping runaway trains, or reinforcing a collapsing building. You could open the Phantom Zone on Earth and that's your enemies sorted.

I think the game mechanic answers to the question of a Superman game do exist.

Zephy · Dec 27, 2020

This is basically the just cause 3 Jet pack DLC with unlimited boost.

Sketchsanchez · Dec 27, 2020

I bet a third person naughty dog style superman game would be really good. And I don't mean grim dark, I mean a well told linear adventure set around big set pieces and being fucking superman and Clark Kent.

SofNascimento · Dec 27, 2020

A Superman game doesn't even need to take place in Metropolis. Or Earth for that matter.

ChunkyChowder · Dec 27, 2020

Why can't Superman have a health bar? Thor, Hulk and Goku have health bars in their games and nobody bats an eye. There are plenty of heavy hitters in his rogues gallery and in the DC universe that can go toe to toe with him, even without kryptonite.

More_Badass · Dec 27, 2020

I think another problem is people seem to think that Superman action gameplay having to be a brawler like Arkham, Spider-Man, etc.

We've tried that already in Superman games, just like Batman beat-em-ups existed before Arkham, and it really didn't work. How about a Yakuza 7 (action turn-based) or Transistor (queuing actions) approach? Battle arenas specifically designed around transitions smashing through the environment or super-powered attacks that can go super OP, while the real-time gameplay involves Clark Kent life stuff ala Persona and saving-people set-pieces

est1992 · Dec 27, 2020

Darknight said:
I think you're missing the point. That looks fun when you're doing that but you're not supposed to be doing that so the gameplay example doesn't really match up with how the game design would work and they're at odds with each other as a result. That's the problem with Superman games; the fun stuff that looks fun is stuff you really won't be doing so how do you design a game that is fun but at the core of it remains true to the character.

Nah I understand what you guys are thinking, I just think you're making it overcomplicated.

If the circumstances call for a Superman game with destruction like, say, an alien invasion, then who cares if you can destroy stuff.

“Undefeated” Shows What A Superman Game Could Look Like

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