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SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
So what are you saying, to me or any other developer? How exactly are motivating them?

For devs that routinely work 14 hour days with 70 hour work weeks during crunch periods. Claiming lazy dev rhetoric as a point of motivation when the work ethic and hours involved is a total antithesis of "motivation"

Yes, yes, please, I await these motivating words with baited breath!

Maybe I have gotten things off on the wrong foot. I know what developers are going through & I feel sorry for them.

Perhaps there needs to be better communication between developers, publishers & fans as to how we can make games that are better for everyone & what can publishers & developers do to make everyone involved happy.
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
This is pure mental gymnastics. When you're criticising a game, you're criticising a game. When you're criticising a developer, you're criticising a developer. I'm not criticising a developer for saying X or Y about game Z is poor, and I'm not criticising a game when I say developer W is lazy. BotW was not wished into existence by gamers calling Aonuma lazy or incompetent.
Why the heck are you getting on me for? I'm literally agreeing with you my dude. I never said BotW came because of them being called lazy. I said it's being Skyward Sword was criticized and from that the feedback helped create BotW.
 

Zuko

Member
Aug 11, 2020
894
I think some people mistake "lazy" for two things. It's either what everyone has already said, corporate suits telling people to ship it regardless of what the game looks like, or it's developers who are just inexperienced in a certain area so they're learning just like anyone else. Pokemon is a big one I think of where the team is used to making games for mobile so it explains why Sw/Sh looks so amateurish.
 

Deleted member 81119

User-requested account closure
Banned
Sep 19, 2020
8,308
People with zero gamedev experience "motivating" devs by calling them lazy: Perfectly reasonable.
Devs calling out the above: So rude, please relax.

Dev <-> gamer interaction in a nutshell.
This thread is also gamer entitlement in a nutshell. It's not enough to criticise a game because *shock horror* the devs might not act on those criticisms!! So you have to go after the devs themselves so they know that not providing the features you want in a game is unacceptable!!

I was disappointed by Sword and Shield, but if the next Pokémon game also disappoints....then so what?
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
I'm literally shaking my head, as I don't think we're going to get anywhere as people want to continue putting words in my mouth. It's a controversial thread & subject at the most.
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,687
Boston, MA
So shall we use "lazy managers" then?
Still no. We can't criticize anyone like that. I've been put into a team manager/lead role, and it's not fun to get bespoken by "being lazy" when it's hard to juggle the priorities of what the clients need and what we can output with our best abilities.

Criticize the game, and criticize the result in general. The more constructive it gets, the more powerful such criticism of the game it becomes. If we make the results better, addressing the criticisms and all, and the game becomes better, then it works for us. We would be motivated to continue supporting it.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Why the heck are you getting on me for? I'm literally agreeing with you my dude. I never said BotW came because of them being called lazy. I said it's being Skyward Sword was criticized and from that the feedback helped create BotW.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post as equating "lazy dev" rethoric with criticism of a game. I still disagree with the statement that criticising a game is implicitly criticising the devs, except for very specific cases like indie games or if by "dev" you mean the director (and then again it's a very indirect criticism given that there's often many unseen factors).

Maybe I have gotten things off on the wrong foot. I know what developers are going through & I feel sorry for them.

Allow me to express doubt on both of the latter when you literally started the conversation here with "well, what should we call devs, if not lazy?".

Perhaps there needs to be better communication between developers, publishers & fans as to how we can make games that are better for everyone & what can publishers & developers do to make everyone involved happy.

Well, "better" sure is doing some heavy lifting here. You seemed to have pretty clear ideas on how to "motivate" developers that we're still waiting for.

And not to be fastidious here, but I also take issue at the inclusion of fans in "how we can make better games". In a world of entitled fandoms, I had never heard of even Star Wars fans saying "how we can make better Star Wars movies".

I'm literally shaking my head, as I don't think we're going to get anywhere. It's a controversial thread & subject at the most.

Head-shaking indeed. Who could have foreseen the controversy in asking what are the mod-sanctioned disparaging terms that can be hurled at a collective, let alone that it would ruffle feathers in that very collective. The world is such a crazy place!
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I never said anything of the sort to you. There's no reason to be rude. Relax.
Indeed there's no need to be rude, why it's so important for you then to get call developers lazy? What else that is but being rude? Like do you really think that's helpful critique/feedback? What should the devs learn from that? Especially if they've been crunching 6 day weeks with 12 hour days. Work 7 days a week?

What is the substance in this lazy?
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
This is pure mental gymnastics. When you're criticising a game, you're criticising a game. When you're criticising a developer, you're criticising a developer. I'm not criticising a developer for saying X or Y about game Z is poor, and I'm not criticising a game when I say developer W is lazy. BotW was not wished into existence by gamers calling Aonuma lazy or incompetent.

That and Aonuma wanted to make a game like Breath of the Wild for years, but couldn't because GameCube and Wii weren't strong enough. He even talked about this with Wind Waker that everyone seems to ignore. The reason why Skyward Sword was designed as it was is because they didn't like the big empty world of Twilight Princess, so they condense the world by making it smaller but more interactive like a dungeon.

As for sells, people tend to ignore/forget that Skyward Sword was released at the end of the Wii after Nintendo stopped supporting the system for almost a year to focused on the 3DS. That and another Zelda game existed before Breath of the Wild in Link Between World which also tried to address beating dungeon in a set order and making the game less linear.

Why the heck are you getting on me for? I'm literally agreeing with you my dude. I never said BotW came because of them being called lazy. I said it's being Skyward Sword was criticized and from that the feedback helped create BotW.

Yes and no for the above reasons. Namely, Aonuma wanted to make a game like Breath of the Wild since at least the GameCube, but couldn't because the GameCube and the Wii weren't not powerful enough. Skyward Sword was designed to addressed the big empty world of Twilight Princess by condensing it and making it more interactive like a dungeon. And Skyward Sword's sells was more to do with it being released late on the Wii and after Nintendo left the system to more or less die so they could focused on the 3DS.
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
Indeed there's no need to be rude, why it's so important for you then to get call developers lazy? What else that is but being rude? Like do you really think that's helpful critique/feedback? What should the devs learn from that? Especially if they've been crunching 6 day weeks with 12 hour days. Work 7 days a week?

What is the substance in this lazy?
That wasn't my intention. Why else do you think that I also brought up publishers to Weltall Zero earlier?

I did say if the fault doesn't lie on the developers, then it should be on the publishers themselves.
 

Kreve

Design Director
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
237
If there are any young or starting devs out there who are reading this thread, DO NOT LOOK TO FORUMS FOR VALIDATION. A lot of us make that mistake when starting out. Talk with your fellow developers who are much more likely to have understanding, investment, insight and valuable thoughts on your project.

Don't look for validation here or anywhere other than the people who know what they're talking about. Nobody knows how the sausage gets made or even worse nobody cares. If you look for it here or any gaming forum, you're going to be dehumanized and rarely celebrated.

There are tons of great developer only groups/discords to join. Don't go to enthusiast forums. You will get so much better community for creation and career in a place focused on it.
 
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Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Lazy insinuates intent, which is why it's a toxic term when describing a situation you have no intimate knowledge about. You can describe your displeasure with a game without making it seem like the devs intended for you to experience unfortunate yet inevitable things like bugs
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,943
Japan
I'd suggest calling things mismanaged. If the game is broken, it's one of three reasons — lack of time, lack of people or lack of skill. Or usually a combination of those.

If a game has a specific game design that you loathe or feel it's "lazy", it's usually because either the devs didn't have time to implement something better (lack of time or staff), thought it was honestly good (arguable lack of skill) or was told to do so by upper management or marketing or whatever (arguable lack of skill, or a decision to cover lack of time or staff). And by the time the game is ready, most devs are fully aware of the state of the project (or are even more critical of it than your average user).

Almost nobody on the industry sets out to make a bad game or to be lazy about it. This industry and being lazy kind of go against each other, for the most part.

I have only been in the industry for 8 years, but that's my take on it.
 

Vilam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,053
I wouldn't say marketing is, agreed. I haven't seen that anywhere, but as per my last post, release management, QA and community management to name a few definitely are.

Or at least important functions in the development process and post release support. The latter is becoming a key role in the world of games as a service too.

Would absolutely agree on those, with the exception of community managers. Some are so embedded in the team I'd agree it makes sense to include them under that umbrella, in other cases - not even close. It's still a newish type role to the industry that there isn't a clear standard for how it operates yet.
 

Lord Azrael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
But there is laziness happening there, I think.

Laziness at the level of marketing, or the number of people contracted to complete a task, or the time allotted to complete that task, and so on.

That shit is lazy. There's no other word for it. And we should call it what it is. A lazy money grab.
That's not laziness. That's incompetence, mismanagement or cost cutting. Call it what it is.
 

Furio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
106
Most of the questions here come down to 2 things in game dev.
Budget and time. It's usually as simple as that. How much time can we afford to spend on each feature, asset etc.
There's a schedule and budget, which is usually lower than it should be.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,627
I've said this before, but I think "lazy developers" do exist, just not at the AAA level. Lazy developers are like, whoever those people selling asset flip Steam games are. I guess even calling those people developers is a stretch.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
Would absolutely agree on those, with the exception of community managers. Some are so embedded in the team I'd agree it makes sense to include them under that umbrella, in other cases - not even close. It's still a newish type role to the industry that there isn't a clear standard for how it operates yet.

I agree. A lot of the time, especially on the publishing side they're often an extended part of the marketing team, barely touching the actual product outside of comms.

Just noting that especially in the world of live service titles, they're becoming increasingly important in the ongoing development process. Going to be interesting how the role evolves over the coming years as yeah, it's still new and I don't think a lot of studios fully understand where it fits. They just know they need one.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
If there are any young or starting devs out there who are reading this thread, DO NOT LOOK TO FORUMS FOR VALIDATION. A lot of us make that mistake when starting out. Talk with your fellow developers who are much more likely to have understanding, investment, insight and valuable thoughts on your project.

Don't look for validation here or anywhere other than the people who know what they're talking about. Nobody knows how the sausage gets made or even worse nobody cares. If you look for it here or any gaming forum, you're going to be dehumanized and rarely celebrated.

There are tons of great developer only groups/discords to join. Don't go to enthusiast forums. You will get so much better community for creation and career in a place focused on it.

I would go so far as to carefully consider even getting verified, lest people use it against you in entirely unrelated discussions. That's the new normal in dev/player interactions.

That's not laziness. That's incompetence, mismanagement or cost cutting. Call it what it is.

I kind of love how OP smokebombed once the thread predictably backfired. :)
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,070
As someone who works on games and have worked on titles big and small I always find it weird how "lazy devs" is dismissed as a reason why something isn't done because it absolutely happens. Getting something approved sometimes is like pulling teeth because a dept doesn't want to do the work and try something different they always want to stick to stuff from previous titles. Usually what ends up happening is some go-getter in a dept actually tries to get something working and it gets integrated. There are definitely people hiding in companies where you ask yourself what do they actually do. Of course this varies from company to company.

Twitter and Reddit does actually get devs attention especially if something becomes a meme it gets spread super fast internally. There are also those devs that live in their own world and pay no attention to reaction the game gets and just care if the game sales or not for their bonus.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,601
As someone who works on games and have worked on titles big and small I always find it weird how "lazy devs" is dismissed as a reason why something isn't done because it absolutely happens. Getting something approved sometimes is like pulling teeth because a dept doesn't want to do the work and try something different they always want to stick to stuff from previous titles. Usually what ends up happening is some go-getter in a dept actually tries to get something working and it gets integrated. There are definitely people hiding in companies where you ask yourself what do they actually do. Of course this varies from company to company.

Twitter and Reddit does actually get devs attention especially if something becomes a meme it gets spread super fast internally. There are also those devs that live in their own world and pay no attention to reaction the game gets and just care if the game sales or not for their bonus.
I've never met a lazy dev (at least an employed one). I don't know your experiences, but normally anyone like that would be let go by any competent company. There's a wealth of people looking for work; there usually isn't a very good reason to hang on to someone like that.
 

Kreve

Design Director
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
237
I would go so far as to carefully consider even getting verified, lest people use it against you in entirely unrelated discussions. That's the new normal in dev/player interactions.

Wow. Adding that person immediately to my ignore list.

When I was working in AAA for 32 hours straight leading up to ship or day 1 patch reading this kind of stuff would've wrecked me. It's makes me glad I never got verified or post about anything I work on. Many devs routinely sacrifice so much to do what they do, who needs that kind of abuse on top of everything else?
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
"Repurpose?"

How about.

STOP FUCKING SAYING LAZY DEVS.

You most likely wouldn't say it to their faces if you were face-to-face with those devs.

So why even use words that you won't use outside the safety of the internet.
 

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,560
Switzerland
Saying lazy devs is bad for sure, but i don't think it's bad to use the word itself for other situations...

How would you call some of these EA sport games like madden and fifa that reuse everything that was ine the previous game without almost no modification for years? THere's definitely someone that was lazy in the process and didn't care to put any effort into it!

OF course not the devs, but someone definitely was! There always someone somewhere who doesn't care and is lazy... not everyone is a saint that will make tons of effort in everything they do... i mean I am lazy MYSELF...
 

Jeepman87

Member
Sep 16, 2020
195
I'm lazy on the weekends. But I'm sure why it's a term that gets thrown around so quickly without direct knowledge of others... oh yeah it's the internet. :)
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,951
California
"I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it."

Bill Gates
In all my hiring, I've never chose a person that I deem as lazy and I've interviewed countless applicants for coding positions. I think his wording is off because a lazy person doesn't last in the tech industry. I've seen many of them get the boot.

Coding is brutal and add a deadline to it and it becomes stressful AF. A lazy person wouldn't last. An innovative person would find a way to improve the process.
 

porcupixel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
324
Saying lazy devs is bad for sure, but i don't think it's bad to use the word itself for other situations...

How would you call some of these EA sport games like madden and fifa that reuse everything that was ine the previous game without almost no modification for years? THere's definitely someone that was lazy in the process and didn't care to put any effort into it!

OF course not the devs, but someone definitely was! There always someone somewhere who doesn't care and is lazy... not everyone is a saint that will make tons of effort in everything they do... i mean I am lazy MYSELF...
This has nothing to do with the psychological trait known as "laziness" or a matter of "not caring." This is a matter of finance and production decision makers at a company actually taking their jobs very seriously and working very hard to do what they were hired to do -- namely, analyze the financial outlook, predicted spend, and projected incoming revenue for every greenlit project and allocate the company's resources (headcount, technology, hardware) with the goal of minimizing the spend while maximizing revenue. As such, if there is no projected increase in revenue from having X number of artists spend Y number of hours to bump up the texture resolution of in-game assets than they will likely determine that to be out of scope for a given budget and timeline.

I'm over-simplifying the decision-making process to a large extent, but the point is thinking this has anything whatsoever to do with the emotions or psychological makeup of the people involved, instead of people making business decisions to maximize business impact because that's what a business does, is just silly.
 

LexusRacer

Member
Jan 15, 2018
176
Miami, Florida
In all my hiring, I've never chose a person that I deem as lazy, and I've interviewed countless applicants for coding positions. I think his wording is off because a lazy person doesn't last long in the tech industry. I've seen many of them get the boot.

True, but it goes to OP's statement. Management will find the easiest and fastest way to make money. It's tough to come out with a new product or revenue stream, so why not just be lazy about it. Look at all the EA Sports games.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,951
California
True, but it goes to OP's statement. Management will find the easiest and fastest way to make money. It's tough to come out with a new product or revenue stream, so why not just be lazy about it. Look at all the EA Sports games.
If I'm not mistaken, EA upper management is heavily involved with their sports franchises which is why the turnover is so high for Madden leads. I'll see if I can back that up with an article.

It's still very difficult for me to call them lazy though. It's a very tough job balancing upper management, your professional ability and what fans want. Usually, upper management win those battles.
 

dsmash

Member
May 19, 2020
60
In my view, games should be shorter. Make them episodic like back in the shareware days. Most people don't even finish games. If the games were shorter, devs could make the shorter game higher quality at a lower price. If the game was a success, they could release an additional episode.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
whenever i get depressed i all i need to do is remind myself what a privilege it is to work in the games industry where there are countless passionate fans willing to sacrifice their time to tell devs how to do their job and easily make lots of money
 

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,499
The Digital World
imagine if capital G gamers chose to spend energy doing something productive instead of finding a loophole on reset era dot com that allows them to shit talk devs

i guess we'll never know
whenever i get depressed i all i need to do is remind myself what a privilege it is to work in the games industry where there are countless passionate fans willing to sacrifice their time to tell devs how to do their job and easily make lots of money
you mean to tell me that gamers who have never held down a job DON'T know how to make games!?
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,687
Boston, MA
It's tough to come out with a new product or revenue stream, so why not just be lazy about it. Look at all the EA Sports games.
We can't just judge the recent EA Sports games like that. Who knows if it's due to the contracts just to sign a deal with the major sports leagues, and that motion capturing new actions and prompts using real-life athletes is off the table?
 

Penny Royal

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
QLD, Australia
Not knowing how to be incredibly effective at your job doesn't mean you're lazy, and that goes for every role from devs to QA to marketing. You might be early in your career, struggling with lack of training, unrealistic expectations, poor support, or simply unable to find common ground with people you need to work with. Take all those factors and consider that game development is very much a team sport, that team dynamics are ill-understood and have been since the founding of society, and that lack of stability means few teams have the luxury of working with people they know and trust? It's a miracle any game is ever playable at all.

"Lazy devs" is actually a reflection of lazy forum posting with no understanding of how games are made or what contributes to problems we see. If making great games was just a matter of pouring money into a company and weeding out the lazy employees we'd see a whole lot more great games. It's far more complicated.

As someone who works in software (though not in games), I'm convinced that anyone who doesn't work in software doesn't have the slightest idea what the process of making software is actually like and why it turns out the way it does, both good and bad.

Way too many people think that because they play a lot of games they understand what it takes to make them.

Agree with both of these.

This forum needs a moratorium on how any discussions related to the professional/business side of gaming is managed, because there is an almost bottomless well of ignorance on even the most basic elements of business & project management that drives the kind of binary good guys/bad guys debate ITT.

you mean to tell me that gamers who have never held down a job DON'T know how to make games!?

Watch out, you might get a ban for telling the truth antagonising other users
 

ergoakari

Member
Oct 28, 2017
428
Canada
I agree with this 100%. You see it a lot, especially in relation to folks who work on annual or licensed titles. The devs on those games typically have to, year over year, attempt to do a seemingly impossible amount of work and get treated pretty poorly by the community and other devs alike.
 

BreakyBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,027
I think it's a pretty useful term for posters to help signal that their opinion is one that I can skim right over.

Saves a lot of time.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,059
Melbourne, Australia
Nobody gets into game development because it's a cushy job where you can be 'lazy' lmao. These people are surely passionate about the idea of making games.

But the upper management can often suck, and cause problems.

Game Freak is the best example here. It's not the individual Game Freak devs who are intent on continually making mediocre products. It's whoever's in charge of making the big decisions. Such as keeping the budget completely anemic despite the overwhelming success. Or demanding that the games keep getting churned out annually, while refusing to expand the teams to make this all at least somewhat tenable. It's incompetent/greedy management that fucks things up.
 
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Nov 7, 2020
157
Unpopular opinion: I just served a 3 day ban for using the word "lazy" AND I am a 3-D modeler. Not sure why this is a such a trigger on here, its the internet, if someone online calls my work lazy I KNOW they mean the game overall etc. Or the models and I know they most likely mean from mismanagement, not a random modeler not doing his job right. Game Devs are so bitter, fans are bitter etc. I just dont care, I just do my thing, call my shit lazy, people get really defensive understandably, but thats how it works.

What I have a bigger issue with is ERA just banning me without warning for 3 days for it. No warning just banned. Its kind of ironic I cant call someone "lazy" but I can just immediately be banned for a 4 letter word.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,107
Lazy devs do exist, but they do not last long. On the whole very few developers are lazy at work (as in slacking off to watch YouTube videos all day etc) because they would be weeded out very quickly. Much faster than some other industries.

I am an account manager and sometimes I am lazy at work (I'm on the clock right now). But there aren't a sea of Account managers fighting for my job in the same way that people are fighting to get into the game industry. There is no room to slack off, it is way too competitive.

The issue is pretty much always budget and bad management. I'm guessing those are the cause for 90% of problems in games.

edit: Oh this is a bumped thread apparently