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0VERBYTE

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,555
.

Just last year, a American carrier visited Vietnam in a port call for the first time since the end of the Vietnam War, now, yeah, America lobbies for it, but dont ignore the independence of other countries in favor of a American imperialist narrative. Vietnam lobbies for increased American relations to warn China never to think about a repeat of the Sino-Vietnamese War. Historically, Vietnam has suffered many Chinese invasions and dominating influence than the U.S. It sounds strange maybe to you, but as I linked in a post above, Vietnamese people have better opinions of the U.S than China.
This is what people here dont get. Its a mutual agreement between countries. People think since the US has been traveling international waters for a long time they have been strong arming these countries into putting bases on their land. Since WWII its been mutual political partnerships and aid.
 

DarthWoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,664
Well I would question where hundreds of missiles are being shot from first off.

If they are going that all out to sink a carrier group then we're already practically in a full blown war, and from what you're saying it sounds like they just blew their load if they are firing hundreds of missiles at a single target.

Second, in any reasonable engagement, almost all missiles would be intercepted far before they reach the carrier.
Even American analysts say that by the time some of these missiles are detected, the CBG would have about 45 seconds to initiate defensive measures. Sure, a lot will get knocked down, but it only takes a few to mission-kill the carrier. The missiles are relatively cheap too, so even a hundred or so is chump change compared to the costs of that carrier. I've no doubt that they could easily stockpile such missiles by the thousands if they want to.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,501
Dallas, TX
Sinking two carriers seems like a great way to muster up American political will to build five more. Not that it would ever happen. Sinking a carrier would get you approval for war in pretty much any country except from diehard pacifists.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757


I mean they could start a war but it couldn't sustain anything if we cripple its water production. They are so stressed that it wouldn't need much to send alot of the country into chaos because of water shortages.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Even American analysts say that by the time some of these missiles are detected, the CBG would have about 45 seconds to initiate defensive measures. Sure, a lot will get knocked down, but it only takes a few to mission-kill the carrier. The missiles are relatively cheap too, so even a hundred or so is chump change compared to the costs of that carrier. I've no doubt that they could easily stockpile such missiles by the thousands if they want to.

But to blow that much for the carriers( who can tank some hits ) would leave them wide open for more strikes on the mainland
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
Sinking two carriers seems like a great way to muster up American political will to build five more. Not that it would ever happen. Sinking a carrier would get you approval for war in pretty much any country except from diehard pacifists.

I mean, yeah. This strategy was tried before: Pearl Harbor.

Spoilers: it ended with someone getting nuked. Maybe don't assume you can just blow up a fucking aircraft career and skip off whistling, that's basically the dumbest fucking plan a human being has ever attempted.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
What do you mean "return to a state where China thinks it can be a top dog"?
China is a world power and will almost certainly remain one in the foreseeable future.

China is a regional power. Wikipedia has a definition of superpower. Now, inside the wiki article, there are criticisms of the usage of superpower, with differing suggestions as to what the current model of the world is actually now. But in a military context, America is 100% top dog, world wide ability to project power on multiple fronts, something that no nation, and certainly not China can project to such a degree as the U.S.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
China is a regional power. Wikipedia has a definition of superpower. Now, inside the wiki article, there are criticisms of the usage of superpower, with differing suggestions as to what the current model of the world is actually now. But in a military context, America is 100% top dog, world wide ability to project power on multiple fronts, something that no nation, and certainly not China can project to such a degree as the U.S.
In military context, China couldn't have gone toe to toe with America since at least the middle of the 19th century.
Again, so what situation are you worried about returning to?

Or do you just think that the US must maintain its military superiority over any country no matter what?
Btw, this is a position many in the US take, I'm just trying to understand where you stand.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
In military context, China couldn't have gone toe to toe with America since at least the middle of the 19th century.
Again, so what situation are you worried about returning to?

Or do you just think that the US must maintain its military superiority over any country no matter what?
Btw, this is a position many in the US take, I'm just trying to understand where you stand.

If another country actually could challenge the US from a conventional force projection standpoint, it's fairly logical that actual conflict becomes more likely. It happened in ww2. I don't think anyone wants that again.
 

Doom_Bringer

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,181
For comparison, here's the stupid claims over the south china sea:

420px-South_China_Sea_claims_map.jpg


Just to make it clear what China thinks it's doing here.
this pisses me off!! And the sad thing is, due to China's military might they can easily bully all those countries
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
Sinking two carriers seems like a great way to muster up American political will to build five more. Not that it would ever happen. Sinking a carrier would get you approval for war in pretty much any country except from diehard pacifists.

Well no, the time to build a american supercarrier is significantly longer than WWII, and the U.S has only one drydock capable of building it. For example, the latest carrier to enter service was laid in 2009, completed in 2013, and not delivered to the navy for active duty until 2017. While we can assume in the event of war, we would increase our industrial capability for war, im not gonna lie, a Chinese submarine launching a strike against our only drydock in Newport would end that. Heres the thing, in the event of a war between China and the U.S, China needs to at least prevent a American blockade of China, meaning either their navy gets much bigger, or the Chinese set up a effective anti-ship defense shield on land and sea. All China needs to do really is sink 2-3 carriers or have the capability to sink two carriers if they attempt to begin blockade operations.

And again, nukes are a non-starter. China has MAD capability. Now neither power will use it most likely unless their state is threatened with dissolution, but the reality is the U.S cannot wave around nukes as a solution. It will be a conventional war.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Well no, the time to build a american supercarrier is significantly longer than WWII, and the U.S has only one drydock capable of building it. For example, the latest carrier to enter service was laid in 2009, completed in 2013, and not delivered to the navy for active duty until 2017. While we can assume in the event of war, we would increase our industrial capability for war, im not gonna lie, a Chinese submarine launching a strike against our only drydock in Newport would end that. Heres the thing, in the event of a war between China and the U.S, China needs to at least prevent a American blockade of China, meaning either their navy gets much bigger, or the Chinese set up a effective anti-ship defense shield on land and sea. All China needs to do really is sink 2-3 carriers or have the capability to sink two carriers if they attempt to begin blockade operations.

And again, nukes are a non-starter. China has MAD capability. Now neither power will use it most likely unless their state is threatened with dissolution, but the reality is the U.S cannot wave around nukes as a solution. It will be a conventional war.

But even then it would only be open for a short time because we have carriers to spare that go and blockade while we use submarines to blow their navy and ports to kingdom come.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
If another country actually could challenge the US from a conventional force projection standpoint, it's fairly logical that actual conflict becomes more likely. It happened in ww2. I don't think anyone wants that again.
I don't think that's a fair reading of what caused WW2, and more broadly, historically, when you have one world power that cannot be opposed you don't so much get peace as you get "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must". That's a quote from 2500 years ago by the way.

And this is also why if you do get one dominant superpower you will pretty much withotut fail see an arms race. Any rational country that is not deep ally would want to at least be able to bloody the nose of that superpower, that would be true even if the US didn't have a stupid, unpredictable racist running the military, and I think this what is China focusing on at the moment.
No doubt at some point China will seriously challenge American military superiority, but I think America need to be honest with itself about what would it take to keep a country with 4 times as many people significantly military weaker in the long term. Because I don't think how you can do it without eventually just go to war with them.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809


I mean they could start a war but it couldn't sustain anything if we cripple its water production. They are so stressed that it wouldn't need much to send alot of the country into chaos because of water shortages.

Interesting. I knew they had a major problem with pollution, but they're on the brink of a full on water crisis.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,544
South Korea, Japan (A antiwar population means American security is desired in order to prevent their own rearmament), Philippines (a example of opposition by a country's population resulting in the cancellation of the stationing of American forces in the country), Thailand (in return for American bases, the U.S provides training, equipment, funding in addition to the security pact). As you can see, countries get benefits for inviting U.S forces to remain.
I'm aware of their stance and self-interests. I'm not totally convinced their interests share the same goal. SE Asia has a complicated history of disputes. S. Korea is more concerned with their border with N. Korea. Japan is afraid of retalation for what the Empire did in WWII. The precursor of the Sino-Vietnamese War was the invasion of Cambodia by Vietnamese forces. This thread makes it seem China is the bogeyman here. They're not stupid despite what a high ranking officer said.

They do have disputes over the South China Sea. That much is clear.
 
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Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,360
First of all, to destroy any of those bases would effectively be targeting other nations as those bases are within other countries borders. China would be declaring war on those nations as well.
So you say China would be willing to kill 10k americans but wouldn't dare to target US bases in countries that have literally 0% chance against china? Sound strategy. You should be military planer.

Secondly, its not that easy to target those bases without rapid response from other distinct sources on land and sea. So china would have a hard time targeting every single base and ship in the area within hours of each other without being matched in kind with retaliation
So you're talking nonsense.

China knows where the US bases are. Hell you can google them.
 

whytemyke

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,788
The thing is, sinking 2 carriers would be great for headlines. It would make the people of China feel like a global superpower to the point that they probably haven't felt in centuries.

The reality though is that it wouldn't do anything to put a dent in the force projection that the US Navy and air force has around the globe. Losing 10k naval servicemen would only galvanize the US population towards viewing China as an enemy.

So I guess my thinking is this:
Could China sink a couple carriers? Especially with that rail gun they rolled out this week, most likely. Would it propel them closer to the Pax Sinica era that they want to usher the world into as Pax Americana wanes? Highly doubtful.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
So he really means "declare war", because that's what sinking two carriers would do. And then the US and it's allies would just fucking obliterate the Chinese navy in the region.
 

Lkr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,528
Nothing unites Americans like a war against a nation we have a long history of xenophobia with. Evidence: this thread
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The thing is, sinking 2 carriers would be great for headlines. It would make the people of China feel like a global superpower to the point that they probably haven't felt in centuries.

The reality though is that it wouldn't do anything to put a dent in the force projection that the US Navy and air force has around the globe. Losing 10k naval servicemen would only galvanize the US population towards viewing China as an enemy.

So I guess my thinking is this:
Could China sink a couple carriers? Especially with that rail gun they rolled out this week, most likely. Would it propel them closer to the Pax Sinica era that they want to usher the world into as Pax Americana wanes? Highly doubtful.
Being able to sink a couple of American carriers, or even just have a decent chance to sink one, would really raise the bar you have to clear for the US to go to war with you.
That's generally a pretty huge deal. Though I think in the case of China, the US is already really really reluctant to get into a full on conflict with them, so I'm not sure how much that would change the global geopolitical calculus. But as a whole, that the point of all of that shit. China is not close to being able to mount an offensive against American territories, and I don't think even the hardest of the hardliners in their military think that they can do that any time soon.
What they are trying to do is raise the cost of a potential conflict with them to deter the US.

Now don't get me wrong, I think those types of arm races are super wasteful and can easily lead to wars that neither side really wanted, but I understand why China would want to pursue those capabilities, and I don't know if I can exactly fault countries that aren't willing to bet on perpetual American benevolence, especially with the person currently in the White House (though in the case of China, the fact that the US spent trillions of dollars trying to overthrow its government probably gave them reasons to be suspicious of the US even before Trump).
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
In military context, China couldn't have gone toe to toe with America since at least the middle of the 19th century.
Again, so what situation are you worried about returning to?

Or do you just think that the US must maintain its military superiority over any country no matter what?
Btw, this is a position many in the US take, I'm just trying to understand where you stand.


Hey, no problem, im happy to answer, its something of a hobby for me. So let me be clear about my thoughts on American power in relation to the international order. I think American overarching dominance provides a sort of security over the entire world in that the dominance of one power prevents the rise of others, or even better, lessens the risk of conflict between states and the potential for insecurity and arms races. Again, a easy scenario is to look at China and SE Asia. Vietnam has dealt with historical Chinese intervention in its affairs, the most recent being 1979. Vietnam as a country, and people do not look favorably on the potential of Chinese dominance increasing and worry about the risk of future Chinese intervention in Vietnamese affairs. In a scenario without the U.S, I could see Vietnam rearming, securing alliances with other SE nations for security against China. But despite these efforts, China is still a big dog, probably able to take on all of SE Asia if she wished. Therefore the U.S is a counterbalance smaller states fearing larger neighbors can use to guaranteeing their security.

Part of ensuring that security, part of preventing arms races, increased risk of armed conflict and global disruption of peaceful trade is the capability of overwhelming force (i.e 11 aircraft carriers). So yeah, we must maintain military superiority not in self-defense of ourselves, but in the self-defense of our allies and friends, which I believe provides security for us.

An aspect of retaining U.S superiority needs to be remembered, is the usage of soft power, of power projection not in military nature. Things like economic aid, trade agreements, cultural spread of American-friendly ideology, etc.

Now China itself, is a growing power. China of course has their legitimate security needs, and the simple fact is, as a authoritarian nation, she needs to keep her population happy in order to prevent revolt and overthrow. (Particularly since as a authoritarian nation, the security of the ruling party is paramount) Part of that is the security of China's trade, that fuels its oil consumption, that allows her factories to produce goods for the world, and generate the economic fuel for her people, etc, etc.

On that simple basis that China has legitimate security needs to require it to develop military power for its internal and external security, we have the first conflict between the U.S and China. One, China is a authoritarian nation, the United States does not generally support authoritarian nations. I wont get into things like spreading democracy too much, but I do think the maintenance of democratic regimes is a important tool for American soft power, and here we conflict with China, a nation that relies on suppressing democracy. So on the simple basis that China needs to defend itself from risk of revolt, China needs to reach military parity with the U.S to prevent a scenario where the U.S may decide to conduct a regime change by military force. Not by a mainland invasion, but a simple blockade of China's ports will probably end the Chinese Communist regime.

Now, from Chinese viewpoint, military parity is a necessity. However, U.S strength is overwhelming. Heres the deal that China gets currently. Engage in a arms race it cannot win with the U.S and lose, or we settle into a stalemate, into a situation where both sides preserve what they value the most, and give and take. America will never be able or allowed to remove the Communist Party, and China never threatens American global dominance. Essentially, my view of American policy should be to never let anyone potentially think they can get into a fight and win. Like the very idea is suicidal. Like a stalemate is the best course of action for everyone.

Now this is a pretty simplistic view. Like say we decide to talk about Russia. Russia cannot enter a military fight vs the U.S. However, Russia can use its influence to turn American power away. Russia needs to do this in order to prevent the loss of Russian influence beyond Russia's borders and maintain a security cordon for the protection of Russia (i wont get into why, cause im not too read up on it, alot is economic, etc.). Why does America need to undertake active measures against Russia if they can't win a military fight? I'll give you a example. A significant fear among East European states like Poland, the Baltics is the risk of Russian intervention or military action. But what about NATO? NATO exists....but can those states bank everything they have on the USA? No, so the Baltics and Poland invite American forces to settle in country, cause the thought is placing American forces in harms way tripwires American full-fledged support. What about economically? Let me provide you another situation. Germany, the leading European nation on the continent is not fully trusted to take measures in support of East Europe completely vs their own self-interest. An example is the Russian to European gas line called Nord Stream. Essentially, Russia provides a significant portion of fuel for Europe, including West European states like Germany. These gas lines do not go through East Europe, and the fear is that Russia can negotiate with West Europe for Eastern European influence and control. Obviously, East Europe does not like this. Eastern Europe can go to the U.S and ask for support against Russia and to lobby Western European states to hold the line against Russia.
So we have a situation where a Europe that is divided is one, a Europe Russia can gain more influence overall and thereby reduce American influence, Two, Europe is the most significant lever to hurt Russia. Promoting a united Europe under American leadership allows for influence over Russian affairs. Promoting and strengthening pro-American parties in Europe hurts Russia. Also a united Europe is a Europe less likely to reenter conflict. (I wont get into the legitimacy of Russian concerns vs American power, thats a factor too.)
 

Bob_Coffee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
682
Being able to sink a couple of American carriers, or even just have a decent chance to sink one, would really raise the bar you have to clear for the US to go to war with you.
That's generally a pretty huge deal. Though I think in the case of China, the US is already really really reluctant to get into a full on conflict with them, so I'm not sure how much that would change the global geopolitical calculus. But as a whole, that the point of all of that shit. China is not close to being able to mount an offensive against American territories, and I don't think even the hardest of the hardliners in their military think that they can do that any time soon.
What they are trying to do is raise the cost of a potential conflict with them to deter the US.

Now don't get me wrong, I think those types of arm races are super wasteful and can easily lead to wars that neither side really wanted, but I understand why China would want to pursue those capabilities, and I don't know if I can exactly fault countries that aren't willing to bet on perpetual American benevolence, especially with the person currently in the White House (though in the case of China, the fact that the US spent trillions of dollars trying to overthrow its government probably gave them reasons to be suspicious of the US even before Trump).

You also underestimate the bloodthirstyness of americans if a carrier did go down. I bet liberal and conservative alike would want to see china or any country that even attempted to do that skullfucked into Oblivion asap after it happened. But realistically a conflict wont happen because both america and china like money. Despite china trying to be pushy south east asia.
 

0VERBYTE

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,555
So you say China would be willing to kill 10k americans but wouldn't dare to target US bases in countries that have literally 0% chance against china? Sound strategy.

The mere fact that you said other countries have 0% chance against China is clear you have no grasp of the situation. Those countries you are referring too is stronger than china because of the fact they have US bases and is part of a larger network of defense against china and their aggressive practices. It would be foolish to attack any one of them because you not only have the US to contend with but korea and japan and australia. To attack those bases would be to attack all of the others which china is incapable of doing.


you're talking nonsense.

China knows where the US bases are. Hell you can google them.
Whos the one talking nonsense here?

Thats not the question here. The question is whether China is fool ebough to go to war with the entire region because they decide to try and attack US bases in thailand or the Philippines. You sound ridculous right now. Is this how all chinese nationals think of this situation?
 
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ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
I'm aware of their stance and self-interests. I'm not totally convinced their interests share the same goal. SE Asia has a complicated history of disputes. S. Korea is more concerned with their border with N. Korea. Japan is afraid of retalation for what the Empire did in WWII. The precursor of the Sino-Vietnamese War was the invasion of Cambodia by Vietnamese forces. This thread makes it seem China is the bogeyman here. They're not stupid despite what a high ranking officer said.

They do have disputes over the South China Sea. That much is clear.

Well, China is a bogeyman in that their rise is gonna be a headache for the U.S, and neighboring countries. For example, South Korea hasn't forgotten China is really close by. Obviously a war would be horrible for SK but I don't think they want to give up to Chinese control either. Japan regularly has disputes with SK, but I think having the U.S on hand prevents any serious escalation. The invasion of Cambodia by Vietnam stopped a genocide by a government supported by China. At the end of the day, American power provides a serious deescalation lever in the region for everyone to use which is the point im trying to make.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
I'm aware of their stance and self-interests. I'm not totally convinced their interests share the same goal. SE Asia has a complicated history of disputes. S. Korea is more concerned with their border with N. Korea. Japan is afraid of retalation for what the Empire did in WWII. The precursor of the Sino-Vietnamese War was the invasion of Cambodia by Vietnamese forces. This thread makes it seem China is the bogeyman here. They're not stupid despite what a high ranking officer said.

They do have disputes over the South China Sea. That much is clear.

Not that the U.S hasnt done shitty stuff, but pointing to the invasion of Cambodia by Vietnam against a Chinese-supported regime that performed a genocide as somehow making China not the bogeyman in invading Vietnam does not make China look better.
 

shinobi602

Verified
Oct 24, 2017
8,369
The US defeated Iraq and Afghanistan very easily, it's the occupation that has been difficult.

Provided the US aren't trying to do the nation building thing China would go down quickly in a conventional war.
Iraq's 'military' consisted of 60's and 70's tech in the control of ill-trained leaders who turned tail and ran at the first sight of battle and Afghanistan's Taliban? Lol.

Making even a remote comparison to a country with the tech & size of China is pointless really. It'd be a war that would bring the world to ruin.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Iraq's 'military' consisted of 60's and 70's tech in the control of ill-trained leaders who turned tail and ran at the first sight of battle and Afghanistan's Taliban? Lol.

Making even a remote comparison to a country with the tech & size of China is pointless really. It'd be a war that would bring the world to ruin.

But really the Chinese military structure has never been tested in big conflict so we have no idea how it would hold up in actual conflict of that scale, So it would be nice to wargame it a bit. Also I'm not sure the country of China can sustain a War economy like it would have to because of their water issues.

I'm not sure they would be able to cope with any long term conflict on their homeland.
 

Emergency & I

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,634
Meanwhile, the South Korean government is throwing Trump levels of bullshit at Japan over SK's recent naval aggression.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Hey, no problem, im happy to answer, its something of a hobby for me. So let me be clear about my thoughts on American power in relation to the international order. I think American overarching dominance provides a sort of security over the entire world in that the dominance of one power prevents the rise of others, or even better, lessens the risk of conflict between states and the potential for insecurity and arms races. Again, a easy scenario is to look at China and SE Asia. Vietnam has dealt with historical Chinese intervention in its affairs, the most recent being 1979. Vietnam as a country, and people do not look favorably on the potential of Chinese dominance increasing and worry about the risk of future Chinese intervention in Vietnamese affairs. In a scenario without the U.S, I could see Vietnam rearming, securing alliances with other SE nations for security against China. But despite these efforts, China is still a big dog, probably able to take on all of SE Asia if she wished. Therefore the U.S is a counterbalance smaller states fearing larger neighbors can use to guaranteeing their security.

Part of ensuring that security, part of preventing arms races, increased risk of armed conflict and global disruption of peaceful trade is the capability of overwhelming force (i.e 11 aircraft carriers). So yeah, we must maintain military superiority not in self-defense of ourselves, but in the self-defense of our allies and friends, which I believe provides security for us.

An aspect of retaining U.S superiority needs to be remembered, is the usage of soft power, of power projection not in military nature. Things like economic aid, trade agreements, cultural spread of American-friendly ideology, etc.

Now China itself, is a growing power. China of course has their legitimate security needs, and the simple fact is, as a authoritarian nation, she needs to keep her population happy in order to prevent revolt and overthrow. (Particularly since as a authoritarian nation, the security of the ruling party is paramount) Part of that is the security of China's trade, that fuels its oil consumption, that allows her factories to produce goods for the world, and generate the economic fuel for her people, etc, etc.

On that simple basis that China has legitimate security needs to require it to develop military power for its internal and external security, we have the first conflict between the U.S and China. One, China is a authoritarian nation, the United States does not generally support authoritarian nations. I wont get into things like spreading democracy too much, but I do think the maintenance of democratic regimes is a important tool for American soft power, and here we conflict with China, a nation that relies on suppressing democracy. So on the simple basis that China needs to defend itself from risk of revolt, China needs to reach military parity with the U.S to prevent a scenario where the U.S may decide to conduct a regime change by military force. Not by a mainland invasion, but a simple blockade of China's ports will probably end the Chinese Communist regime.

Now, from Chinese viewpoint, military parity is a necessity. However, U.S strength is overwhelming. Heres the deal that China gets currently. Engage in a arms race it cannot win with the U.S and lose, or we settle into a stalemate, into a situation where both sides preserve what they value the most, and give and take. America will never be able or allowed to remove the Communist Party, and China never threatens American global dominance. Essentially, my view of American policy should be to never let anyone potentially think they can get into a fight and win. Like the very idea is suicidal. Like a stalemate is the best course of action for everyone.

Now this is a pretty simplistic view. Like say we decide to talk about Russia. Russia cannot enter a military fight vs the U.S. However, Russia can use its influence to turn American power away. Russia needs to do this in order to prevent the loss of Russian influence beyond Russia's borders and maintain a security cordon for the protection of Russia (i wont get into why, cause im not too read up on it, alot is economic, etc.). Why does America need to undertake active measures against Russia if they can't win a military fight? I'll give you a example. A significant fear among East European states like Poland, the Baltics is the risk of Russian intervention or military action. But what about NATO? NATO exists....but can those states bank everything they have on the USA? No, so the Baltics and Poland invite American forces to settle in country, cause the thought is placing American forces in harms way tripwires American full-fledged support. What about economically? Let me provide you another situation. Germany, the leading European nation on the continent is not fully trusted to take measures in support of East Europe completely vs their own self-interest. An example is the Russian to European gas line called Nord Stream. Essentially, Russia provides a significant portion of fuel for Europe, including West European states like Germany. These gas lines do not go through East Europe, and the fear is that Russia can negotiate with West Europe for Eastern European influence and control. Obviously, East Europe does not like this. Eastern Europe can go to the U.S and ask for support against Russia and to lobby Western European states to hold the line against Russia.
So we have a situation where a Europe that is divided is one, a Europe Russia can gain more influence overall and thereby reduce American influence, Two, Europe is the most significant lever to hurt Russia. Promoting a united Europe under American leadership allows for influence over Russian affairs. Promoting and strengthening pro-American parties in Europe hurts Russia. Also a united Europe is a Europe less likely to reenter conflict. (I wont get into the legitimacy of Russian concerns vs American power, thats a factor too.)
Before we get into it, thanks for taking the time for writing a detailed response, I appreciate it.

So first of all, I suggest we don't linger too much on what is a better outcome for the world in terms of world dominance and spheres of influence. It requires us to assume a whole lot about what China and the US will be in the future and how they'll behave. I also think it's not a single answer, I mean, what's better for the Palestinians is not necessarily what's better for the uyghurs. In fact, I would suspect it's the exact opposite.
But in terms of national interests, I think we both agree that it makes sense for China to strive to military parity and for the US try to preserve its superiority.
I do however think that you must consider what it would take for the US to maintain its superiority over China in the long term.
China has way more people than the US, its economy will pass America's, and how can you keep a country that richer, have more people and a much better ability to direct resources to where its leadership want them to from having a military that is at least on par with you?
Can you think of a long term solution that does not involve an all out war?

You say Russia, but it's very easy to see how the US will maintain its superiority over Russia in the long term, but I really don't see how it can be done with China.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Before we get into it, thanks for taking the time for writing a detailed response, I appreciate it.

So first of all, I suggest we don't linger too much on what is a better outcome for the world in terms of world dominance and spheres of influence. It requires us to assume a whole lot about what China and the US will be in the future and how they'll behave. I also think it's not a single answer, I mean, what's better for the Palestinians is not necessarily what's better for the uyghurs. In fact, I would suspect it's the exact opposite.
But in terms of national interests, I think we both agree that it makes sense for China to strive to military parity and for the US try to preserve its superiority.
I do however think that you must consider what it would take for the US to maintain its superiority over China in the long term.
China has way more people than the US, its economy will pass America's, and how can you keep a country that richer, have more people and a much better ability to direct resources to where its leadership want them to from having a military that is at least on par with you?
Can you think of a long term solution that does not involve an all out war?

You say Russia, but it's very easy to see how the US will maintain its superiority over Russia in the long term, but I really don't see how it can be done with China.

Go look at the video I posted in the thread earlier about China's water problems. Between their Water issues and Population issues they have coming up They are going to issues with civil unrest before they too long.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Go look at the video I posted in the thread earlier about China's water problems. Between their Water issues and Population issues they have coming up They are going to issues with civil unrest before they too long.
I don't think a collapse of China is terribly likely, nor is it a good thing, but yeah, if China collapses it will not catch the US militarily.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
Before we get into it, thanks for taking the time for writing a detailed response, I appreciate it.

So first of all, I suggest we don't linger too much on what is a better outcome for the world in terms of world dominance and spheres of influence. It requires us to assume a whole lot about what China and the US will be in the future and how they'll behave. I also think it's not a single answer, I mean, what's better for the Palestinians is not necessarily what's better for the uyghurs. In fact, I would suspect it's the exact opposite.
But in terms of national interests, I think we both agree that it makes sense for China to strive to military parity and for the US try to preserve its superiority.
I do however think that you must consider what it would take for the US to maintain its superiority over China in the long term.
China has way more people than the US, its economy will pass America's, and how can you keep a country that richer, have more people and a much better ability to direct resources to where its leadership want them to from having a military that is at least on par with you?
Can you think of a long term solution that does not involve an all out war?

You say Russia, but it's very easy to see how the US will maintain its superiority over Russia in the long term, but I really don't see how it can be done with China.

There is still the thinking that economic interconnection will prevent the breakout of conflict. In its current state, China produces the world's manufactured goods, but if the U.S Navy were to blockade that, it would effectively be dead. (Not that we wouldn't get damaged but you see my point). As for riches, there are multiple ways to contain that, economic agreements, like TPP were intended to leverage multiple countries to free up Chinese economic laws that disadvantaged foreign firms. Populations are important for wealth and economy, but I wouldn't say they translate to military power, not in this age of technological warfare. Yeah, China has the world's largest population but if the state arrives where China requires more than American power to contain it, we have the world's second largest nation, India, also a growing power. A three-way powerbalance in SE Asia between India, China, and the U.S, would still ensure peace as no one wants war on that scale. China's influence is growing but aside from India, we still have the EU, with the potential to merge into a superstate at least defensively.

Like I said, the goal to prevent the idea of war coming about. I think the current situation is still pretty American-leveraged, the future might be more multi-polarized, but I still think as long as all states are tied economically, and democracy prevails we won't see armed conflict arise.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
Tbh the biggest risk of armed conflict is if we can't solve the various problems arising such as resource depletion, water issues, etc. The best way to starve that off is to maintain the international system we have in place, and hopefully solve problems collectively, without some people putting their heads in the fucking sand.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
The biggest benefit of the current international system is the fact that wars of conquest are banned, and borders are frozen in place, countries generally are sovereign and free to do as they please within their own borders. Now obviously theres exceptions, interventions, and etc, but the general rule is your country is safe from being taken over. Part of the reason I think Russia is being punished so hard is the fact they invaded Ukraine, and made the international order look like wet paper. If the U.S cannot ensure the security of states from other states, we'll see arms races occur all over, like the ex-Soviet states rearming, or states attempting to procure nuclear capabilities again for self-defense. Which is why the U.S needs to double in instead of chicken out against China and Russia, the alternative is smaller states no longer trusting or accepting U.S oversight and undertaking their own defense needs and security.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,866
Chicago, IL
Go look at the video I posted in the thread earlier about China's water problems. Between their Water issues and Population issues they have coming up They are going to issues with civil unrest before they too long.

That's not gonna happen. Nothing unite people more than a war against what they perceive as foreign invaders. People in China still think it's shameful that some Chinese people surrendered to Japan during WWII, even though China fought Japan for eight years despite being outgunned the entire time.

I also feel like a lot of people in this thread forgot that China's nuclear arsenal alone is enough to end the world already. A war between China and US should never happen.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,544
Not that the U.S hasnt done shitty stuff, but pointing to the invasion of Cambodia by Vietnam against a Chinese-supported regime that performed a genocide as somehow making China not the bogeyman in invading Vietnam does not make China look better.
I'm not defending China's actions. I'm only pointing out that the justification of a full-scale invasion is dubious unless provoked or when the timing is strategically justified. Like how China started the Sino-Indian War when the US and Soviet Union were preoccupied with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Or how Ho Chi Minh used Japan's surrender in WWII to declare independence of Vietnam. China in turn used it for leverage to extend its influence when they had to disarm the Japanese occupiers in the French Indochina region as agreed during the Potsdam conference.

China isn't dumb. They're not going to start a war over nothing.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
If you wipe and sink two, we'll build ten in thier place. And they will be bigger than the last two.

America isn't afraid to lose casualties. You kill 10,000 of our troops and you'll be begging us to stop before we're even done saying 'America, fuck yeah'.

And I'm a dove.
 

Sol Mori

Member
Jun 10, 2018
221
That's not gonna happen. Nothing unite people more than a war against what they perceive as foreign invaders. People in China still think it's shameful that some Chinese people surrendered to Japan during WWII, even though China fought Japan for eight years despite being outgunned the entire time.

I also feel like a lot of people in this thread forgot that China's nuclear arsenal alone is enough to end the world already. A war between China and US should never happen.

China's nuclear arsenal is not enough to end the world, all the nuclear weapons from every nation aren't enough to do that. Modern nuclear weapons are not Tsar Bomba, they tend to be in the kiloton range and the US arsenal includes ones that can have their yield dialed in.

Nuclear weapons are not magic doomsday weapons. Yes, a full out nuclear war could directly kill hundreds of millions of people and lead to a situation of chaos that kills many more, but it still isn't an extinction level event for humans.

While no one should be eager to use or even threaten use to nuclear weapons; there is still no need to greatly exaggerate their power.

Major population centers would be targeted, but so would major ports and shipping hubs. This would make delivering food, water, and medicine more difficult or even impossible and would lead to increase unrest (or outright chaos).

Normally I would say this is all dumb posturing, but unfortunately the current US is mentally handicapped and the Republican Party that enables him hate the US more than anyone else in the world.
 
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DarthWoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,664
If you wipe and sink two, we'll build ten in thier place. And they will be bigger than the last two.

America isn't afraid to lose casualties. You kill 10,000 of our troops and you'll be begging us to stop before we're even done saying 'America, fuck yeah'.

And I'm a dove.
Someone already mentioned it, but today's carriers are about as far from a simple WWII carrier as an F-18 is from a Corsair. As much as the sentiment might be there to build those ten new carriers, the infrastructure wouldn't, at least not in any reasonable timeframe. Then there is the cost factor. Whenever someone posts that jingoistic infographic about world carriers, they almost never mention that half of the supercarriers are being maintenanced, refitted, or refueled at any given time. A refueling can take up to three years for a nuclear carrier.