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Tsuyu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,617
I'm not a muslim and I don't agree with beheading someone for this.

What I do observe is there is a large, sometimes outspoken, online narrative that pits muslim against the western world. I get this feeling where Islam as a whole seems very unpopular to the mainstream folks in general. Era is actually an imperfect exception with more naunce and attempts to seek common understanding, instead of trying burn down bridges by denouncing the entire religion.
 

TheAndyMan

Banned
Feb 11, 2019
1,082
Utah
User banned (permanent): Invoking Charlie Hebdo as a reason a murder victim should have acted differently, prior severe infractions for a racist joke and whataboutism in a race thread
Look who has no idea what they're talking about.

That's not what happened, if I were you I'd ask myself why I thought this was what happened. Where did you pick that up?
Seems pretty rude. These cartoons have caused giant controversy multiple times, it doesn't matter that he showed Jewish and Christian cartoons as well.

Here:
www.nytimes.com

A Teacher, His Killer and the Failure of French Integration (Published 2020)

For generations, public schools assimilated immigrant children into French society by instilling the nation’s ideals. The beheading of a teacher has raised doubts about whether that model still works.

In a class on freedom of expression — including the right to say blasphemous things about all religions — Mr. Paty used caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, Jesus and rabbis to teach, former students said.

After his transfer a few years ago to Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, in a Paris suburb with a more diverse population, he appeared to adjust his approach. When showing caricatures, he began telling students who might be offended that they could leave the classroom or look away.

At the new school, students said he showed mostly caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad that had been published by Charlie Hebdo. One of the two shown this month was titled "A star is born" and depicted Muhammad fully nude. That upset many Muslim students and their parents, according to the local chapter of PEEP, a national parents association.

He was being completely insensitive to Muslims feelings. Haven't you heard of
?
Hugely controversial. Or the time Charlie Hebdo insulted them multiple times?

Charlie Hebdo - Wikipedia

This was gigantically controversial.
 
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Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,936
Era is actually an imperfect exception with more naunce and attempts to seek common understanding, instead of trying burn down bridges by denouncing the entire religion
Is it? I know for a fact that the majority of Muslim users either left entirely or never show up outside of Gaming section. Granted Era ain't gonna suddenly transform into TD and celebrate Christchurch, but I wouldn't say that there's much nuance here at all.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,123
Seems pretty rude. These cartoons have caused giant controversy multiple times, it doesn't matter that he showed Jewish and Christian cartoons as well.

Here:
www.nytimes.com

A Teacher, His Killer and the Failure of French Integration (Published 2020)

For generations, public schools assimilated immigrant children into French society by instilling the nation’s ideals. The beheading of a teacher has raised doubts about whether that model still works.



He was being completely insensitive to Muslims feelings. Haven't you heard of
?
Hugely controversial. Or the time Charlie Hebdo insulted them multiple times?

Charlie Hebdo - Wikipedia

This was gigantically controversial.
And you can show charicatures of Muhammad. You can especially if you are teaching things about free speech. You're framing this as he's not a victim and that he poked something he shouldn't have. It doesn't matter if he was insensitive to others, he doesn't deserve to be beheaded for it.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,748
Seems pretty rude. These cartoons have caused giant controversy multiple times, it doesn't matter that he showed Jewish and Christian cartoons as well.

Here:
www.nytimes.com

A Teacher, His Killer and the Failure of French Integration (Published 2020)

For generations, public schools assimilated immigrant children into French society by instilling the nation’s ideals. The beheading of a teacher has raised doubts about whether that model still works.



He was being completely insensitive to Muslims feelings. Haven't you heard of
?
Hugely controversial. Or the time Charlie Hebdo insulted them multiple times?

Charlie Hebdo - Wikipedia

This was gigantically controversial.

Still didn't deserve to die brutally over showing a fucking drawing. There, that wasn't so hard was it?
 

TheAndyMan

Banned
Feb 11, 2019
1,082
Utah
And you can show charicatures of Muhammad. You can especially if you are teaching things about free speech. You're framing this as he's not a victim and that he poked something he shouldn't have. It doesn't matter if he was insensitive to others, he doesn't deserve to be beheaded for it.
You should really look at the official staff communication.

And just because you can, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
 

Kitsunebaby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,661
Annapolis, Maryland
Seems pretty rude. These cartoons have caused giant controversy multiple times, it doesn't matter that he showed Jewish and Christian cartoons as well.

Here:
www.nytimes.com

A Teacher, His Killer and the Failure of French Integration (Published 2020)

For generations, public schools assimilated immigrant children into French society by instilling the nation’s ideals. The beheading of a teacher has raised doubts about whether that model still works.



He was being completely insensitive to Muslims feelings. Haven't you heard of
?
Hugely controversial. Or the time Charlie Hebdo insulted them multiple times?

Charlie Hebdo - Wikipedia

This was gigantically controversial.

Uh, yeah, that's the fucking point. That freedom of speech is more important than anyone's right not to be offended. That no ideology is sacred or free from criticism. Do you think political satirical cartoons are bigoted too?
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
It's hard to take anybody serious who thinks publishing a bunch of pretty boring cartoons is somehow a "crime". It's okay to say you're offended by them, but then again I'm offended by politicians (anywhere in the world) that openly say stuff like 'all hispanic people are rapists' and I have to accept that they are still elected representatives. That's what a free and liberal society is, you need to accept that there's offensive shit out there, without turning into a violent mob.
That's not to say that there isn't a lot of serious islamophobia in Europe, that a lot of Muslims have to endure racism basically everyday and this situation will absolutely help to make islamophobic comments more mainstream.

Ultimately, I feel more sympathetic (given the recent murder) to French politicians that want to make a clear statement in support of freedom of speech. They should also, at the same time, distance themselves from far-right extremists who simply want to see all traces of Islam gone from Europe, which is something I'm not really seeing.
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
User banned (permanent): Inflammatory generalizations are inappropriate even if you include your own country. Off-topic derailment and downplaying Islamophobia in the west over a series of posts. Account in junior phase.

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
Fuck Macron and fuck France.

Two Muslim women stabbed under Eiffel Tower 'by white women shouting "dirty Arabs"'

This happened after the incident people are mentioning in this thread, but we all know the one white guy is more important than the two muslim women. France is one of the most Islamophobic countries in the world.

"The French are a people that are in crisis all over the world today."

Everytime people mentions islamophobia, me and people from r/exmuslims dies a bit inside
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,733
It is very straightforwardly true that you should be able to show a depiction of Mohammed without fear of violence, let alone a literal beheading. Is anyone here really disputing this?

Because I think the answer to that question is "no", can we move on to the more important points instead of just accusing other posters of victim blaming? There is a lot to unpack here.

Some important points:
  • France is a very Islamophobic country. Like many western nations, they disguise their Islamophobia by utilizing the seemingly neutral language of "liberal" values. For example, they speak of banning religious clothing and iconography in general terms while being fully aware that certain forms of expression are valued in some religions more than others. A ban on religious clothing, for example, obviously has differential impacts on religions that have adopted certain forms of dress as a religious practice (i.e. Islam) versus those that have not (like Christianity).
  • The "it's speech and therefore it deserves to be protected" argument deserves to be examined critically. The right to depict Mohammed without legal repercussions ought, indeed, to be a right protected by the law. However, like a lot of legally protected speech, whether that legal protection should translate into a moral "right" to disseminate that speech is an entirely different matter. The fact is that people depict Mohammed almost always for the express purpose of antagonizing Muslims; therefore, the moral defensibility of the act of depicting Mohammed is going to be pretty low in almost all contexts.
  • White lives are given more value than brown lives in the public discourse. Chances are, the big reason that you think violence by Muslims is a problem is because your perception of what constitutes "a problem" is informed by your media consumption. Accordingly, if you are a white dude - a statistically likely guess on this forum - you probably overestimate the degree to which Muslims are perpetrators of violence. The reality in many (if not most) western democracies is quite different from the common perception: Muslims are primary victims of terrorism and hate crimes. Violence perpetrated by Muslims plays out in the press, while the aftershock of retribution that frequently follows these events plays out in the shadows.
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
France and Britain are highly responsible for the rise of religious extremism and radical fundamentalism in West Asia and North Africa. Their colonial legacy has left an entire region highly politically unstable and thousands of people radicalized by those circumstances, and that's to say nothing of their present day profiting from the military industrial complex and their participation in America's forever wars. Any violence that results from that can simply be described as the chickens coming home to roost.

As always, fuck France.
Hurray, another victim blamers got banned

Today is a good day
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,712
This fight between leaders of the more traditional muslim community and free speech is not going to end with free speech in a bunch of western countries having special caveats that disallows comments about islam. It just isn't. Either this fight will continue, or the the more traditional muslim community will accept that this is how it is.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
You should really look at the official staff communication.

And just because you can, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Do you think there is any context(ie, academic)+treatment(asking students to leave the room, for instance) whatsoever in which these drawings can be shown and have it not be called a "bad idea" on part of the person who showed them?
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
[*]White lives are given more value than brown lives in the public discourse. Chances are, the big reason that you think violence by Muslims is a problem is because your perception of what constitutes "a problem" is informed by your media consumption. Accordingly, if you are a white dude - a statistically likely guess on this forum - you probably overestimate the degree to which Muslims are perpetrators of violence. The reality in many (if not most) western democracies is quite different from the common perception: Muslims are primary victims of terrorism and hate crimes. Violence perpetrated by Muslims plays out in the press, while the aftershock of retribution that frequently follows these events plays out in the shadows.
[/LIST]
As a brown indonesian ex muslim, i assure you that im not overestimating anything

Muslim is the primary victim of hate crimes? No shit sherlock, they're a fucking minority. Nearly all minority groups has been discriminated by the majority. Please come to my country where muslim is the majority and see how things work. And my country is one of the more moderate muslim countries out there
 
Oct 27, 2017
920
Islam, just like most if not all other religions, has multiple sects and its holy text has multiple interpretations. "Sharia" is not monolithic and can take different forms depending on school of thought. Take the below verse from the Quran for example. The "mischief in the land" could mean treason but it could also be interpreted in different ways by different people.

Quran 5:32
"That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity."

As a Muslim, my interpretation is that Islam emphasizes the sanctity of life, which is a gift from God. In Islam, God grants every human the chance to repent up until death, up to and including for the biggest sin of shirk (i.e. associating partners with God). I don't think the above verse is intended to mean you can go on a killing spree anytime someone offends your religion.

To give an example, the second caliph of Islam, Omar, was one its biggest opponents before converting to Islam. From his wiki page:

"In 610 Muhammad started preaching the message of Islam. However, like many others in Mecca, Omar opposed Islam and even threatened to kill Muhammad. He resolved to defend the traditional polytheistic religion of Arabia. He was adamant and cruel in opposing Muhammad, and very prominent in persecuting Muslims.[23] He recommended Muhammad's death.[24] He firmly believed in the unity of the Quraish and saw the new faith of Islam as a cause of division and discord.[23]"

To Macron's comments, I don't think Islam is in crisis. Muslims are the ones in crisis. Literally facing state sponsored genocide in Myanmar, living in an open air prison in Palestine, facing severe human rights abuses in China and India, and dealing with ongoing racism and islamophobia in "civilized" western countries, including America. Muslims aren't even in peace in many countries where they are the majority, because they have been war torn by imperialist policies (see Afghanistan or Iraq) and/or have faced decades of negative post colonial impacts including from but not limited to plunging and looting of valuable artifacts and resources, creation of hasty withdrawal maps leaving nations bitterly fighting for decades (see Kashmir), carving and splitting the same ethnic groups into different countries, and installing and backing ruthless dictators that have or continue to terrorize their populations for decades. All of this breeds extremism.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,651
People are conflating Islamophobia with being against religious extremism and its honestly bothering me - religious extremism caused countless deaths throughout our history (Christianity is especially guilty of this) and I will never side with religious radicals. Their words and actions spread Islamophobia.

So fuck Erdogan and people who think talking shit about a prophet warrants a death sentence. People should have a right to say whatever they want without fear of getting killed. Its especially egregious when those same leaders ignore the Muslim genocide in China.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,733
As a brown indonesian ex muslim, i assure you that im not overestimating anything

Muslim is the primary victim of hate crimes? No shit sherlock, they're a fucking minority. Nearly all minority groups has been discriminated by the majority. Please come to my country where muslim is the majority and see how things work. And my country is one of the more moderate muslim countries out there


Myself said:
White lives are given more value than brown lives in the public discourse. Chances are, the big reason that you think violence by Muslims is a problem is because your perception of what constitutes "a problem" is informed by your media consumption. Accordingly, if you are a white dude - a statistically likely guess on this forum - you probably overestimate the degree to which Muslims are perpetrators of violence. The reality in many (if not most) western democracies is quite different from the common perception: Muslims are primary victims of terrorism and hate crimes. Violence perpetrated by Muslims plays out in the press, while the aftershock of retribution that frequently follows these events plays out in the shadows.
Highlighted for emphasis.

That the non-Muslim minority is treated poorly in your country is unfortunate, but I fail to see how that's relevant to the poor treatment of the Muslim minority in France.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
its not just the money (although that contributes greatly) - its that its much easier to ignore the plight of human lives (hello palestine) over a prophet's sanctity
I mean they were several wars initiated by the surrounding muslim countries over Palestine and they lost all of them. I'm not sure you can really say the countries that engaged in that didn't try.
 
Oct 27, 2017
920
As a brown indonesian ex muslim, i assure you that im not overestimating anything

Muslim is the primary victim of hate crimes? No shit sherlock, they're a fucking minority. Nearly all minority groups has been discriminated by the majority. Please come to my country where muslim is the majority and see how things work. And my country is one of the more moderate muslim countries out there
Muslims are suffering even in many countries where they are a majority. The Arab Spring didn't happen for no reason. Certain western democracies have previously and still continue to back dictators or monarchies that have been ruthless to their citizens.
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
I mean they were several wars initiated by the surrounding muslim countries over Palestine and they lost all of them. I'm not sure you can really say the countries that engaged in that didn't try.

Not to mention that the palestinian authority being corrupt and keep doing stuffs like paying the families of terrorist.

And countries like Jordan probably doesnt trust Palestinian people anymore after what they did during black september.
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
Muslims are suffering even in many countries where they are a majority. The Arab Spring didn't happen for no reason. Certain western democracies have previously and still continue to back dictators or monarchies that have been ruthless to their citizens.


And those suffering muslims still loves to continue persecuting their non muslims and lgbt groups, or even their fellow muslims like the ahmadis, humans really do loves punching down don't they?
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,210
France has a huge racism problem, and Macron is disgustingly surfing on that, so fuck him.

But let's not pretend assholes like Erdogan aren't doing this because this law might hamper their ability to exercise soft power through religious funding.
These guys have sterner words for cartoons than for a teacher getting beheaded, so fuck them too.
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
Judging by your posts here you hate both.

So pointing out how many muslim societies regularly oppress their minority is anti muslim now? There are alot of decent muslims, but they're a good person DESPITE their religion, not because of it.

Just look at the most tolerant muslim countries, albania, Azerbaijan, Turkey (at least pre erdogan), they have muslims that are very tolerant because there has been a period where political islam is heavily repressed. Compare them to countries where political islam run rampant like pakistan and the difference is striking.
 

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
So pointing out how many muslim societies regularly oppress their minority is anti muslim now? There are alot of decent muslims, but they're a good person DESPITE their religion, not because of it.

Just look at the most tolerant muslim countries, albania, Azerbaijan, Turkey (at least pre erdogan), they have muslims that are very tolerant because there has been a period where political islam is heavily repressed. Compare them to countries where political islam run rampant like pakistan and the difference is striking.
I don't think that namesdopping Azerbaijan is currently a good idea.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,994
Despite numerous bans and a staff post this thread is still not generating good discussion. Thread will remain locked, and we will review reports.
 
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