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Nov 27, 2020
4,261
Yeah! Exactly. I would have been happy to grab another two or three more installments. It could have been the start of something really cool.

Instead, it's the end of the original B5 universe -- barring any surprise twists with the new show. Ah well. It was still a fun little ride.

Im a huge B5 fan, but a reboot of the original and not a new story is very disappointing. Far more than the network involved. The original is one of the best tales ever told and outside of the first season holds up pretty well in the remaster… and we're just going to tell it again with different actors?

Hopefully it brings new fans into the world.
I have a feeling that this isn't going to be a straight ahead reboot, based on JMS' comments and the article. It sounds almost like he's combining Sinclair and Sheridan into one character. It also sounds like we might not have a G'kar, Londo or Delenn either.

If they stick with the B4 time travel stuff however, you might see an aged Bruce Boxleitner on the station, instead of Sinclair, which would be an interesting twist.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,286
Midgar, With Love
I have a feeling that this isn't going to be a straight ahead reboot, based on JMS' comments and the article. It sounds almost like he's combining Sinclair and Sheridan into one character. It also sounds like we might not have a G'kar, Londo or Delenn either.

If they stick with the B4 time travel stuff however, you might see an aged Bruce Boxleitner on the station, instead of Sinclair, which would be an interesting twist.

No G'Kar/Londo/Delenn -- you're basing that on JMS citing them as reasons not to continue the original, I'm guessing? Personally, I think it's still likely that we'll see them recast and in leading roles again. When JMS talks about keeping "evergreen" elements, I feel like those characters number among them.

But yeah, agreed on it not being a straightforward reboot. He cited Westworld and BSG; BSG especially really sets the potential tone for his creative approach here. We could have a Morden everybody knows and loves in the first season who then shoots Garibaldi before winking at Londo. We could have a Sheridanclair, like you said. We could wind up with Na'Toth as a perspective character and G'Kar remaining enigmatic for years! The Telepath War could happen during the show! Lots of nuts stuff to envision.

I can totally see that B4 thing. :P
 
Oct 27, 2017
442
I have a feeling that this isn't going to be a straight ahead reboot, based on JMS' comments and the article. It sounds almost like he's combining Sinclair and Sheridan into one character. It also sounds like we might not have a G'kar, Londo or Delenn either.

Effectively retconning the original doesn't make me feel better. It makes me sad.

I hope it's good and will give it a chance. But I'm not optimistic.
 

GreenMonkey

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,862
Michigan
Does anyone remember what AMC was like before shows like Breaking Bad showed up?

Just because it is on the CW doesn't mean it has to suck.

Then again it could end up like Shannara did on MTV. They really butchered it. Ugh.

JMS is running it. I'm hopeful. Only thing I am scared of is that this dies before it ever hits the ground running and we never even get a pilot. Hope not.

JMS and big fantasy author Brandon Sanderson have a pilot script for a show floating out there, too, so that is another JMS project I've been looking forward to.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,272
I have a feeling that this isn't going to be a straight ahead reboot, based on JMS' comments and the article. It sounds almost like he's combining Sinclair and Sheridan into one character. It also sounds like we might not have a G'kar, Londo or Delenn either.
This passage?

To those who have asked why we're not just doing a continuation…for a network series like this, it can't be done because over half our cast are still stubbornly on the other side of the Rim. How do you telling continuing story of our original Londo without the original Vir? Or G'Kar? How do you tell Sheridan's story without Delenn? Or the story of B5 without Franklin? Garibaldi? Zack?

That's not how I read it at all. He's saying they can't do a continuation because those actors are gone, and he would only do a continuation with the original actors.

A reboot allows them to recast the characters.
 

Killthee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,169
Do most CW shows still get 22-episode seasons?
I would not expect a full 22 episode season. They usually start with a 13 episode pilot season and renew it at that amount unless it hits riverdale/arrowverse metrics with their preferred demographics. Those tent pole series for the network are the ones that get 22 episode orders.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,661
After reading the update from JMS I'm feeling a lot more excited for this. And the fact Claudia Christian and others from the original cast will be involved in some way is a very interesting prospect (especially if they somehow got to occasionally reprise older versions of the original characters in a way that still fits in with the vision of the reboot but guess we'll see).
 
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PHOENIXZERO

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,096
The CW has been largely moved away from 20+ episode seasons, hell there's a lot of shows that have been on there over the years that were in the 13-16 episode range. The complaints of this being brought forth by the CW are kind of stupid, they've shown for years to be really friendly to the creative ends of shows. This isn't going to be some "teen" drama or any of that nonsense. The show's budget will be fine and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some HBO Max co-production support too.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,261
No G'Kar/Londo/Delenn -- you're basing that on JMS citing them as reasons not to continue the original, I'm guessing? Personally, I think it's still likely that we'll see them recast and in leading roles again. When JMS talks about keeping "evergreen" elements, I feel like those characters number among them.

But yeah, agreed on it not being a straightforward reboot. He cited Westworld and BSG; BSG especially really sets the potential tone for his creative approach here. We could have a Morden everybody knows and loves in the first season who then shoots Garibaldi before winking at Londo. We could have a Sheridanclair, like you said. We could wind up with Na'Toth as a perspective character and G'Kar remaining enigmatic for years! The Telepath War could happen during the show! Lots of nuts stuff to envision.

I can totally see that B4 thing. :P

This passage?



That's not how I read it at all. He's saying they can't do a continuation because those actors are gone, and he would only do a continuation with the original actors.

A reboot allows them to recast the characters.
You might both be right, but I think that casting G'Kar and Londo would be the most difficult casting challenge, by far…assuming that this show tells a similar story with them as the original. While the writing and storylines for those characters are outstanding, it was the actors in those roles that made it magic. It would be really difficult to replicate that, which is why my mind jumped to JMS possibly saying "why try"? The other characters wouldn't be too much of a stretch to cast, since they mostly fit into specific archetypes, but Londo and G'kar are often times heroic, villainous, funny, secretive or neutral in a conflict…and often all at once, and always entertaining or likable. It's a feat not many actors could pull off.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
This passage?



That's not how I read it at all. He's saying they can't do a continuation because those actors are gone, and he would only do a continuation with the original actors.

A reboot allows them to recast the characters.
I don't think it's that he'd only do a continuation with the original actors but that it'd be jarring to do a continuation with just half the original characters. Which was never really the only possibility, but, I could see why you'd be really pressured to try and get as much of the original cast back as possible and then what, write around all the missing cast members, recast just those roles and have it be all weird? A reboot is the cleanest method frankly.

But really. I'm even ok if this sucks to be honest. If it sucks I can just forget about it, if it's awesome, than, awesome.

I'm really kinda amazed what good performances so many of those actors put in to be honest. I'd probably put casting as the most important factor in what made Babylon 5 awesome because the sets were ass, special effects were ass, costumes were ass, story was above average for TV but still kinda silly but those men and women fuckin' sold it. I don't know who was responsible for the casting of Babylon 5 originally but I hope that person's back and can get so many new great people again.

I don't know why more of the cast didn't move on to greatness because if you could sell me your character on Babylon 5 what character could you not sell me on?
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,360
Sam was actually 22 when Supernatural started. But yes, they were young and probably appealed to a younger audience but the point is that the CW also had shows that didn't skew so young and I don't see why they would cast a bunch of teens or people in their early 20s for Babylon 5.
Superman & Lois features teenagers but the majority of the cast is in their 30s and 40s. Walker is similar, two teens in supporting roles but the rest of the cast is adults ranging from early 30s to 60s. And those are two of their more successful shows.



Claudia Christian was 28 when Babylon 5 started, Richard Biggs and Andrea Thompson 33, most of the others were 40+ but generally the age range isn't that different from some other CW shows.
And how does the original concept not fit the CW demographic? They've been doing genre shows for years now and definitely have an audience for them, Babylon 5 had action, mystery, some comic relief, love stories etc., I can see it working well for them.
And if they must have some younger characters Vir and Lennier could easily be aged down to early 20s without changing their characters, they both were portrayed as young and inexperienced compared to their respective ambassadors (even if Bill Mumy was actually older than Mira Furlan).



When was the last time you actually watched anything on the CW? Because that sounds more like a bad parody of what people expect from the CW not what most of their content is actually like.

They could also expand the focus on the rangers, those were mostly young people. The same with a focus on Starfury pilots.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,063
Effectively retconning the original doesn't make me feel better. It makes me sad.

I hope it's good and will give it a chance. But I'm not optimistic.

A retcon means the writers would retroactively change what happened in the existing continuity. That doesn't seem to be what's happening at all. If the new show isn't an actual continuation, this absolutely seems to be the best way to go about it. There is no point whatsoever to tell the exact same story once again.
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,946
After reading the update from JMS I'm feeling a lot more excited for this. And the fact Claudia Christian and others from the original cast will be involved in some way is a very interesting prospect (especially if they somehow got to occasionally reprise older versions of the original characters in a way that still fits in with the vision of the reboot but guess we'll see).
I mean there were a lot of roles that just weren't present in the original show that old characters could play. Like how earth was the only world on babylon 5 that didn't have a dedicated ambassador, they used the commanding officers for that which just doesn't make sense, same thing with the commanding officers frequently getting into fighters all the time, I think there are many new roles that would make sense for any past actors to take.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,360
Watch Peacock airing a DS9 reboot one month before Babylon 5 airs on the CW
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
They could also expand the focus on the rangers, those were mostly young people. The same with a focus on Starfury pilots.
So, Babylon 5 in the style of Space Above and Beyond?
A retcon means the writers would retroactively change what happened in the existing continuity. That doesn't seem to be what's happening at all. If the new show isn't an actual continuation, this absolutely seems to be the best way to go about it. There is no point whatsoever to tell the exact same story once again.
I don't mind many of the story beats being altered or kept but I really think they need to change the motivation behind the Shadow War. It's probably the thing I hated the most. I like that neither side was outright good or evil in the end but the motivations was still stupid especially with
Lorien just chilling watching it all go down over and over.
I mean there were a lot of roles that just weren't present in the original show that old characters could play. Like how earth was the only world on babylon 5 that didn't have a dedicated ambassador, they used the commanding officers for that which just doesn't make sense, same thing with the commanding officers frequently getting into fighters all the time, I think there are many new roles that would make sense for any past actors to take.
I agree with this though. I always thought it was funny as hell having the command staff hopping in fighters or just zipping away in a Whitestar for funsies, along with the ambassadors showing up commanding warships and shit.
 

Adnor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,957
Effectively retconning the original doesn't make me feel better. It makes me sad.

I hope it's good and will give it a chance. But I'm not optimistic.
Tim Burton's Batman didn't retcon out the Adam West series, and the Nolan movies didn't retcon out Burton's Batman neither. This won't retcon out the original series, which will continue to exist even if this show ends up being complete trash.
 
Oct 27, 2017
442
Tim Burton's Batman didn't retcon out the Adam West series, and the Nolan movies didn't retcon out Burton's Batman neither. This won't retcon out the original series, which will continue to exist even if this show ends up being complete trash.

B5 is not Batman.

I am aware that a new show does not mean the original didn't exist. Thanks.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,063
So, Babylon 5 in the style of Space Above and Beyond?

No thanks. That's the opposite of what the original show aspired to be. Didn't the original network even force JMS to add a pilot character to enable the show to have more of an action oriented tinge, only for that character to be unceremoniously killed off early on? While I'm fine with a new story I still want it to be faithful to the original show in its intent.
 
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Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,946
B5 is not Batman.

I am aware that a new show does not mean the original didn't exist. Thanks.
I don't get the complaint then, this won't take away anything from the original, as it's a completely different version if you dont like it you can always go back to the original. I don't think a new one will be able to match certain characters so I don't have an issue if we don't exactly get a londo or gear since no one would really live up to them. So long as the new character are as nuanced and interesting.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,661
I mean there were a lot of roles that just weren't present in the original show that old characters could play. Like how earth was the only world on babylon 5 that didn't have a dedicated ambassador, they used the commanding officers for that which just doesn't make sense, same thing with the commanding officers frequently getting into fighters all the time, I think there are many new roles that would make sense for any past actors to take.

The point you raised here reminds me of the one of the scenes during Ivanova's monologue at the end of Sleeping in Light where it looks like Zack has become an ambassador of some kind for earth on Centauri Prime with Vir.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,218
Singapore
I don't mind many of the story beats being altered or kept but I really think they need to change the motivation behind the Shadow War. It's probably the thing I hated the most. I like that neither side was outright good or evil in the end but the motivations was still stupid especially with
undefined
I doubt it will even tell the same story in the same timeline with the same world building. More likely it'll be a brand new setting and what makes it "Babylon 5" is that it's about a neutral space station that is a political and business nexus, the fifth of its kind, and anything can grow from there. Based on what JMS is saying on Twitter, I don't expect any Sheridan, Sinclair, G'Kar, Londo, etc at all. If it's the same story but "updated", it is completely pointless.
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,946
The point you raised here reminds me of the one of the scenes during Ivanova's monologue at the end of Sleeping in Light where it looks like Zack has become an ambassador of some kind for earth on Centauri Prime with Vir.
Sinclair was an ambassador to miniatures. Ambassadors exist for earth in the universe, which makes the idea of no earth diplomat on babylon 5 all the more crazy, I get its due to budget constraints, but it's funny in hindsight.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
So, Babylon 5 in the style of Space Above and Beyond?
I mean, they tried to do a spinoff about G'Kar leading a group of Rangers and it couldn't make it past the pilot stage (I remember JMS blaming football for killing its ratings).

As for a reboot itself, I don't think it's that a big of a deal. Any kind of continuation would have had to been so far removed from the original to be at all appealing to new people and it already has a ending that spans a million years of humanity's history.

A version of the show that takes some of the best aspects of the original, throws in some surprises, and perhaps fix some things (I'm still a little salty that the Talia/Ivanova relationship basically started and then Talia got written off because Andrea Thompson was going to leave the show).
 

Gaucho Power

alt account
Banned
Feb 10, 2021
873
Sounds bad. I would love more stories set in B5 universe but reboot sounds like terrible idea. Hopefully it's good, but I rather see sequel or something new set in same universe.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
442
I don't get the complaint then, this won't take away anything from the original, as it's a completely different version if you dont like it you can always go back to the original. I don't think a new one will be able to match certain characters so I don't have an issue if we don't exactly get a londo or gear since no one would really live up to them. So long as the new character are as nuanced and interesting.

Because I want to see something new that continues the story and builds on the history that came before.
 
Oct 27, 2017
442
I men an got an epilog that goes to the ascension of the human race we kinda know where the story would go, but I see that your main point is you would have wanted a sequel set in after the show so fair enough.

If the epilogue is all B5 had left to tell then it really is dead. But I don't think it is.

I think a reboot is also a strategic mistake. B5 has endured. It's characters becoming beloved. The remaster just brought them all back. Clearly the streaming metrics were positive.

But now instead of doing a new story that can exist, and be judged, more or less on its own merits. And build off the work already done. They have to do a reboot story and be judged almost 1:1 versus an original masterpiece. Even done well that is inevitably going to be divisive. Reaction already seems mixed. And I don't think B5 is popular enough to sustain a mixed reaction and get viable ratings.

They have to hit it completely out of the park now. I hope they do. I really do. Because I doubt we get another shot at a B5 show if it bombs.

But hey, as long as we don't get CW Stargate SG1 right? (I kid) https://youtu.be/3_C_PefoE4o
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
The point you raised here reminds me of the one of the scenes during Ivanova's monologue at the end of Sleeping in Light where it looks like Zack has become an ambassador of some kind for earth on Centauri Prime with Vir.
Nah, Zack is wearing a Rangers emblem in that scene. I always thought he was supposed to be some sort of go-between for the Alliance/Rangers and the Centauri.
 

bremen

Member
Sep 22, 2020
1,523
Does anyone remember what AMC was like before shows like Breaking Bad showed up?

Just because it is on the CW doesn't mean it has to suck.

Then again it could end up like Shannara did on MTV. They really butchered it. Ugh.

JMS is running it. I'm hopeful. Only thing I am scared of is that this dies before it ever hits the ground running and we never even get a pilot. Hope not.

JMS and big fantasy author Brandon Sanderson have a pilot script for a show floating out there, too, so that is another JMS project I've been looking forward to.
Shannara was such a missed opportunity it still hurts. Don't think I managed more than a couple of episodes.
 

bremen

Member
Sep 22, 2020
1,523
If the epilogue is all B5 had left to tell then it really is dead. But I don't think it is.

I think a reboot is also a strategic mistake. B5 has endured. It's characters becoming beloved. The remaster just brought them all back. Clearly the streaming metrics were positive.

But now instead of doing a new story that can exist, and be judged, more or less on its own merits. And build off the work already done. They have to do a reboot story and be judged almost 1:1 versus an original masterpiece. Even done well that is inevitably going to be divisive. Reaction already seems mixed. And I don't think B5 is popular enough to sustain a mixed reaction and get viable ratings.

They have to hit it completely out of the park now. I hope they do. I really do. Because I doubt we get another shot at a B5 show if it bombs.

But hey, as long as we don't get CW Stargate SG1 right? (I kid) https://youtu.be/3_C_PefoE4o
Let's not forget that Jms track record with sequels and new series based upon has not been stellar.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,459
I mean, you've got me there. I watched the first season of Arrow, died a little inside, and haven't looked back since.
If you like superheroes give Superman & Lois a chance. It's the best live action Superman depiction in decades.

Jane the Virgin was a truly great show that made you fall in love with the characters, it features several generations of strong latina women, it's about familial love (romantic too but at the core is the family), friendship and over the top telenovela twists and it somehow all works creating a show that's heartwarming, funny, exciting and down to earth and over the top at the same time.

All American is actually a teen soap but it's still worth watching, it's about a young black football player who transfers to Beverly Hills High. The show deals with classism, racism and bullying, it's very good.

It annoys me when people act like the new B5 is already doomed just because it'll be on the CW as if they've never had anything worth watching. Even if some shows don't appeal to everyone it should be recognized that they are objectively well made (like Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend which both have kinda out there premises).
And of course there's a lot of shit on the CW but there's a lot of shit everywhere including HBO Max, Netflix or wherever people would prefer the show to be.

Just no. I cannot even imagine a new cast.
People always think that before a recast and then it turns out to not be a big deal at all.


Reaction already seems mixed.
There are no real reactions to this, some people are just acting like the sky's falling because "OMG CW stupid shallow teen drama", we know next to nothing about the new show except that it'll be a reboot and feature Sheridan from the start.
And if you love the original so much, why not trust JMS when he thinks a reboot is the best way to do it?
 

Remmy2112

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,139
Hopefully the new show is less cursed because cast, crew, and guest starts from B5 have been dropping like flies over the years. The IMDB list was up to 75 dead.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Am I the only Babylon 5 fan who's happy at this news?

I mean, it might suck, but it might be great. We'll never know if they don't try
 

NottJim

Animation Programmer
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
699
This thread sounds like all the people who complained about how ST:TNG was going to ruin ST:TOS.

"They will never recapture the magic of Spock and Kirk! This is desecrating everything Star Trek stands for!"

It's JMS, and I trust him enough that I will watch it regardless, maybe it will be good, maybe it won't, but I want to see it. What I don't want is some bitter gatekeeping fans to kill the project before it's even got a script because it doesn't meet their standard of what Babylon 5 must be.
 
So as a long-time fan, I have two thoughts.

1. In retrospect, the original series was very much charged with social and political commentary - the western political sphere of the late 80s is very evident in many of the original storylines. There is, obviously, PLENTY of things for JMS to take apart and examine in the modern era if he chooses to go that route - so in terms of "what's the point of a new B5?" there are still a lot of stories that could be told. Ones that do matter.

2. The vast scope of future history alluded to in B5 offers interesting potential for just what sort of "remake" this could be. The cyclical nature of time and civilization was a big theme. One of the biggest events in the original series:

The human civil war leading to The Great Burn, and a thousand years of rebooting the entire Earth,

Is left mostly a mystery as to how it all eventually shakes out. But I have suspicions about how the story of B5 could be told again, without truly being a reboot, and with a different cast of characters in a different era.

So yeah; if JMS has creative control, if he's writing it, and he has a good idea - why not? I want to see what he comes up with.